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September 6, 2014 8:04 pm  #21


Re: Mary's Choice

Yes, and that's the main reason why I'm done with her. Not the shooting per se but how it's handled afterwards. And sorry to get off topic, molly212, but that can't be separated IMHO.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 6, 2014 8:11 pm  #22


Re: Mary's Choice

But the afterwards involves more than just her!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 6, 2014 8:16 pm  #23


Re: Mary's Choice

True. You need the idiots to take her back in the inner circle of trust.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 6, 2014 9:34 pm  #24


Re: Mary's Choice

I think she was bluffing in Leninston Gardens. If she wanted to kill him she'd killed him straight away. 

 

September 6, 2014 9:40 pm  #25


Re: Mary's Choice

But don't you think she was really coldblooded there? She only softened a tiny bit when she realized it was John overhearing everything. She didn't give a shit about Sherlock in this moment.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 6, 2014 9:47 pm  #26


Re: Mary's Choice

Yeah, but if one is bluffing one has to appear that way. 

 

September 7, 2014 9:43 am  #27


Re: Mary's Choice

I'm not sure the shooting can be explained just by logical reasons. I don't see any sense in Mary shooting Sherlock like that, I'm with you there, molly.
I think with choosing a blow on the head instead, we would have missed out Sherlock's brilliant mind palace scene. For me, Mary shooting Sherlock is an action put there for dramatic reasons, not so much for logical story reasons, but that's really just my opinion after still failing to understand why Mary did it, and simply based on my thinking that the mind palace scene is one of the best in HLV.
 


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"It is what it is."

 

September 7, 2014 10:20 am  #28


Re: Mary's Choice

silverblaze wrote:

Yeah, but if one is bluffing one has to appear that way. 

But if she was bluffing it was a very bad bluff imo.. what did she intend to acchieve? With her gun she could have threatened him not to tell John in that very moment, but she would have to carry it around every single time they´d meet in the future if she really thinks that´s what keeps Sherlock from confiding in John ^^. 
Maybe she felt threatened and carried it for self-defense, there seems to be a willingness to bargain on her part.. if Sherlock had promised not to tell John and offered her help again it might have turned out different.. but as it was I didn´t see any bluff, she was ready to defend her false identity at any cost. 
 

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 7, 2014 10:22 am)

 

September 7, 2014 5:22 pm  #29


Re: Mary's Choice

Liberty wrote:

She could have tried to talk to Sherlock - maybe a quick threat to kill him or John, to buy her some time until she could talk to him properly.  That may have worked.  It would have relied on Sherlock lying to the police too (which Magnusson does).

I would like to come back to this. There is quite a debate now on whether or not Mary would have been able to beat Sherlock in combat.
I would like to bring up the question of why she does not trust Sherlock. They appeared to get along very well before, and before watching HLV for the first time, I considered them to be friends. As I do not see a single proof for her to be brainwashed (eg she does not appear to be externally controlled or working on instinkt without conscious thought), she must have made the decision not to trust him and shoot him instead.

Why?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

September 7, 2014 5:31 pm  #30


Re: Mary's Choice

Maybe she would have killed him as a last resort, but I think her purpose was them both leaving the scene alive and her secret intact. But convincing him that she would be able and willing to kill him if he brought out the secret could also be useful for her on the long term. 

 

September 7, 2014 5:33 pm  #31


Re: Mary's Choice

But I still wonder why she did not simply talk to him. I mean, he was not a stranger to her, but a friend.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

September 7, 2014 5:41 pm  #32


Re: Mary's Choice

Hah, i love how Mary is "the Snape" of Sherlock series - i remember how Snape was the most discussed person before HP7. And i bet that she would turn to have made despicable things buuuuutttttt still do something good to pay for the whole trust John and Sherlock had for her. She is set now to be the evil one, but like Dumbledore tell to Harry to trust Snape, Sherlock is telling John to trust her....

 

 

September 7, 2014 5:42 pm  #33


Re: Mary's Choice

Schmiezi wrote:

As I do not see a single proof for her to be brainwashed

Programmed or conditioned are better terms, but brainwashed is more commonly understood. She was conditioned to do a very special type of work by the government. She would have been programmed to see the world and stimuli in a certain way and respond specifically to them. Any decisions she makes are based on that conditioning.

John would have actually undergone a similar sort of programming to be in the army to learn respect of the chain of command. I came close to going into the army as a medic some years ago and spoke with soldiers about my fear of not being able to succeed because I didn't have the right mentality for the job (I don't like answering to so-called superiors). It was explained to me that one of the first things that happens in training is that you're broken down mentally and rebuilt to have the correct mindset. I know how that sounds and if there are any soldiers here, I expect to get pounced on, but I didn't see this as a negative thing at all, just part of the training.

I remember being told 'soldiers are made, not born' and I suppose the same thing must be true of government-sanctioned assassins.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

September 7, 2014 5:45 pm  #34


Re: Mary's Choice

I thought the same, Schmiezi. After all, Sherlock is her husband's best friend, the best man to their wedding and someone who had promised to always be there for help no matter what. If I had a big problem AND Sherlock's offer to help me, I'd burst out into tears of gratefulness.

Last edited by Harriet (September 7, 2014 5:46 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 7, 2014 5:47 pm  #35


Re: Mary's Choice

Do you think something did happen afetr the wedding and before the start of HLV, that we don't know about?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 7, 2014 5:50 pm  #36


Re: Mary's Choice

I understand why you expect her to be programmed. I would expect the same thing, but I fail to see a single proof for it on screen. There are tropes film makers use to hint at it, but none of them made it into the show. Di you have scenes where you think that it is shown clearly?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

September 7, 2014 5:52 pm  #37


Re: Mary's Choice

bb: Hmh. No, I don't think so. I'm afraid Mary's just had her own agenda in the whole story.
What could Sherlock have possibly done to her? 

Last edited by Harriet (September 7, 2014 5:52 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 7, 2014 5:56 pm  #38


Re: Mary's Choice

Nothing.
He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I still wonder if Mycroft had a hand in this somehow...


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 7, 2014 5:58 pm  #39


Re: Mary's Choice

@Schmiezi I've been thinking that she shot him because she didn't feel she could take the risk.  But Sherlock does offer to help, and seems sincere.  She could have told him she did need his help, and to not tell John for 24 hours, and made her escape.  After all, later on she has a similar situation to deal with anyway - Sherlock is alive and could tell, and she ends up threatening him rather than killing him.    Why didn't she do that in the first place? 

 

September 7, 2014 6:00 pm  #40


Re: Mary's Choice

Harriet wrote:

bb: Hmh. No, I don't think so. I'm afraid Mary's just had her own agenda in the whole story.
What could Sherlock have possibly done to her?

Enter Johnlock thought here ...
(Sorry for bringing Johnlock up again (well, no, not sorry. But I wish I were sorry. Really! ) but jealousy would make for a good reason to shoot him. Didn't we learn that love is a more vicious motivator?)

Okay, I do not want to lead this discussion into the wrong direction. Leaving Johnlock aside, let's wonder what happened between TSoT and HLV. Mary is pregnant. Does that hold a reason for her not trusting Sherlock? Because otherwise I fully agree with Harriet: If Sherlock would offer his help to me, I would most gladly except. Not shoot him.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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