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August 28, 2014 8:01 pm  #41


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

I suppose they took care of all that had to be said before they met John and Mary. 

That's what's driving me crazy, the fact that they must have talked about it all, and there must have been some sort of "last words" between them, only we never see it!

I feel a fanfic coming on...
 

And what about Mum and Dad? Oh no..http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/worried.png

 

 

August 28, 2014 8:21 pm  #42


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie wrote:

I do get annoyed at Steven Moffat's tendency to monopolise the interpretation of characters and scenes *after* the episode has been filmed. He's a genius and deserves to be worshipped but I do wish he'd just let it stand, and leave us to our own interpretations, once it's been shot and aired. It's nice to have him answer questions and talk about how they came up with things and what alternative versions of events they'd been discussing and all that, but as for actual interpretations of a characters' emotions and motivations, he should really let the episodes speak for themselves.

 
I agree.

But then again.... we always want to know how it's meant, right?
Ah.... dilemma, dilemma.... 


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"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 28, 2014 10:54 pm  #43


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Zatoichi wrote:

This is true, what could they possibly have done or said? Nothing..
It is really a powerful scene and beautifully acted by Martin and Benedict!

And yet..

Seeing Sherlock take off to what seems to be his death sentence while John stays back comforted by Mary, the person who has a great deal of responsibility for that situation, is very hard to digest for me.. it´s not that I´m angry with John himself, it´s just that the whole situation seems so.. unfair? Unsatisfying?
 

Well put, 100% agreed Sorry, I'm a bit late, but I just had to quote this ;)

The last words between Sherlock and Mycroft... I wonder what they could have possibly said to each other. Especially after Mycroft's "Your loss would break my heart". Now, he is seemingly sending his brother on a suicide mission. Would have made for an interesting scene, that's for sure. But since I can never tell how they interact before they do, I can't offer any theory on that. They have such an interesting, strange, complex relationship. Each time I watched a new scene with the both of them, I more often than not ended up recognizing that their relationship was sligthly different than I thought it was before.

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2014 6:47 am  #44


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

ShadyShapeshifter wrote:

The last words between Sherlock and Mycroft... I wonder what they could have possibly said to each other. Especially after Mycroft's "Your loss would break my heart". Now, he is seemingly sending his brother on a suicide mission. Would have made for an interesting scene, that's for sure. But since I can never tell how they interact before they do, I can't offer any theory on that. They have such an interesting, strange, complex relationship. Each time I watched a new scene with the both of them, I more often than not ended up recognizing that their relationship was sligthly different than I thought it was before.

Yes, I agree!  I've loved seeing more and more of their relationship, and there have been surprises all along.  I suppose I should have known how caring Mycroft is right from the beginning when he tests out John for Sherlock's sake.  It gives his words after "Irene"'s death more meaning too.  All lives end.  All hearts are broken.  Caring is not an advantage.   He must think that one day he's going to see Sherlock on the slab.  Shall I be mother?  Sherlock's real mother seems lovely and caring but we don't see her angsting too much over Sherlock's safety.  Isn't it odd that Mycroft has taken over that caring, protective role?  And that Mycroft is fighting against being ruled by emotion almost as much as Sherlock is, despite outward appearances.
 

 

August 29, 2014 7:28 am  #45


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Liberty wrote:

It gives his words after "Irene's death" more meaning too.  All lives end.  All hearts are broken.  Caring is not an advantage.   He must think that one day he's going to see Sherlock on the slab. 

I just re-read that scene last night, too, and realised how very, very carefully worded it is. When you first hear it, it sounds rather cold, like "Caring is not an advantage, so I don't do it and neither should you." But by now, I hear something completely different, I hear "Caring is not an advantage, as I find every time you give me reason to worry about you, but there we are." 

And then the moment Sherlock is out of earshot, Mycroft calls John to tell him to stay with Sherlock and see to it that he keeps off the drugs, and judging by John's calm, matter-of-fact response, they aren't doing it for the first time. They even have a kind of code word for it ("danger night").

Mycroft cares BIG time. He cares so much he'd be bursting at the seams if his suits weren't so well tailored.

As for caring more than their mother - she does care (remember Sherlock's dad in TEH: "She worries!") but I think she has delegated quite a bit of it to Mycroft. He's closer geographically, better equipped technically, and very willing to do it, so I think it's a big relief for the parents to know that Mycroft is watching over Sherlock.

And then maybe they're a bit resigned, too. Not in a bad, cold-hearted way, but when you're around 70 and your kids are grown up (broadly speaking) and out in the world, you have to let them go to a certain extent. You can't just run after them and try and hold them back all the time like when they were toddlers. Which is exactly what Mycroft does or would like to do, and which is what Sherlock hates and tries to avoid.

 

Last edited by La Jolie (August 29, 2014 7:31 am)


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August 29, 2014 11:23 am  #46


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie wrote:

Liberty wrote:

It gives his words after "Irene's death" more meaning too.  All lives end.  All hearts are broken.  Caring is not an advantage.   He must think that one day he's going to see Sherlock on the slab. 

I just re-read that scene last night, too, and realised how very, very carefully worded it is. When you first hear it, it sounds rather cold, like "Caring is not an advantage, so I don't do it and neither should you." But by now, I hear something completely different, I hear "Caring is not an advantage, as I find every time you give me reason to worry about you, but there we are." 

And then the moment Sherlock is out of earshot, Mycroft calls John to tell him to stay with Sherlock and see to it that he keeps off the drugs, and judging by John's calm, matter-of-fact response, they aren't doing it for the first time. They even have a kind of code word for it ("danger night").

Mycroft cares BIG time. He cares so much he'd be bursting at the seams if his suits weren't so well tailored. 

I agree.. that´s what makes me wonder why he accepts the suicide mission over imprisonment to easily. Does he have something up his sleeve? Is it just him accepting Sherlock´s choice? I´d really like to know.. and I hope we get something in S4!

 

August 29, 2014 12:57 pm  #47


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I think Mycroft saw this suicide mission as a better way of ensuring Sherlock’s survival – at least for now. He estimated that he would survive 6 months which means he has 6 months to figure out a way to save him. If he doesn’t already have some sort of idea or plan. An undercover mission would ensure that Sherlock would be at least physically sort of free for the time being. I think it’s a better position than prison in order for Mycroft to be able to help him.
If Sherlock was sent to prison, how could Mycroft ensure his survival there? He may be one of the most powerful men, but there is only so much you can do. Somehow I’ve got the feeling that Sherlock wouldn’t last 6 months in prison.
So, what would have become of him after he survived the 6 month undercover mission? Or would Mycroft have ensured that everyone thought Sherlock was dead, so that he could live in freedom somewhere else? Guess we’ll never know. Another question – Mycroft’s superiors or whatever they are, the ones that wanted Sherlock to go on this mission in the first place, what did they have planned? Before Sherlock shot Magnusson, they wouldn’t have sent him on a suicide mission knowingly, would they? I doubt they wanted to have Mycroft on their bad side. So they must have thought that Sherlock could survive this mission, right? If they still do, what was the plan for Sherlock after this mission? Lifelong exile?
Now Sherlock is back after 4 minutes of exile. That leaves me wondering, what is going to happen to Sherlock once he solves this “Moriarty” affair? Will he be pardoned or something because of his great services for England in this case? That would need this case to be a big one and indeed a threat for England, right? So, in order for Sherlock to be back permanently, there has to be something big behind “Moriarty’s” return, not only a ruse. If it was a ruse the need to punish him would resurface, wouldn’t it?
Sooo many questions ;)

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2014 3:29 pm  #48


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I think Mycroft planned the whole suicide mission because he knew Sherlock would get himself involved in something really bad. Why else would he offer him a job only to be refused? 

 

August 29, 2014 4:29 pm  #49


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I don't actually think so.
I think the idea was just planted there, for the greater impact when Mycroft was in the boardroom, bargaining for Sherlock's life...


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August 29, 2014 5:18 pm  #50


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I like to think Mycroft could have rescued Sherlock, just as Sherlock did for Irene during her 6 months.  It might have been a case of making him disappear with a new identity, but I like to believe that Mycroft would have found a way to do it.  Faked deaths and identities are all the rage in the world of Sherlock. 

Sherlock might be able to survive in prison.  He has put a lot of people away, but he also has some criminals on his side.  He's a very good manipulator which would be handy, and wouldn't be afraid to fight or intimidate people if needed.  He'd be in prison for murdering somebody who lots of people seem to hate.  So I didn't think Mycroft was implying that Sherlock would be killed in prison.  But maybe it would be intolerable for Sherlock, and Mycroft knew that and wanted to spare him that.  I'm not sure. 

I don't think Sherlock would need a pardon because I don't think there's been a trial and a conviction.  It looks to me as if a cover-up was arranged. 

I don't know if Mycroft's colleagues know for sure that it's a suicide mission.  I think Mycroft is the one who assesses it as such.  But I think they believe people are expendable to some extent - that's how wars, etc. work. 

Mrs Holmes.  I agree that she cares, but maybe she's become good at avoiding knowing exactly what it is that her son is up to.  I imagine she prefers to be in blissful ignorance for her own self-protection.  Post TRF, she probably had the vaguest thoughts about some undercover work, and didn't let her mind stray towards danger, beatings and torture.  At least, that's the only way I (as the mother of a son) can imagine being able to deal with it.  Otherwise it would just be unbearable.

 

August 29, 2014 7:50 pm  #51


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Liberty, I really hope Mrs Holmes does it that way. It's really the most sensible thing to do, if she wants to get any sleep at all at night.



silverblaze wrote:

I think Mycroft planned the whole suicide mission because he knew Sherlock would get himself involved in something really bad. Why else would he offer him a job only to be refused? 

Now that's an interesting thought. Makes a lot of sense if you subscribe to the theory that Mycroft was in on the Appledore/"Christmas present" scheme. But if you don't subscribe to that, it probably is just a narrative device, not to have the mission pop up out of nowhere and also to give Mycroft the chance to declare his love for his brother.

I think that there was no trial and no conviction. There is no such thing as "undercover mission in Eastern Europe" as an official alternative to a prison sentence for murder in English law. The murder would have been hushed up (probably declared a suicide) and there would never have been a murder charge officially. 

I think there are several reasons why Mycroft wanted to keep Sherlock out of prison at all cost.

1. Mycroft is one of the writers and what kind of boring Season 4 would that be?
2. Mycroft loves Sherlock and prison is a horrible place to be, in so many ways.
3. Among those things, Sherlock could be hurt/killed in prison by inmates that hate him.
4. The prison system as such would be negatively affected ("riots on a daily basis"). (Mycroft is a civil servant whose job it is to ensure the security of the Free World - these things matter to him.)
5. Drugs are easily available in prison, and being incarcerated would be very depressing and boring and turn Sherlock back into a junkie in no time.
6. On the MI6 mission, there would be possibilities to "rescue" him before the 6 months are up. There would also be no headaches what sort of life Sherlock would live after that mission, because if there was no trial and no conviction, he could just come back to 221b.

I wonder why the Powers That Be agreed to send Sherlock on that mission in the first place! I easily see how Mycroft would have wanted to keep Sherlock out of prison, but why would anyone else? Mycroft insists it is not brotherly compassion that makes him advocate his preferred solution, but then what is it?

Last edited by La Jolie (August 29, 2014 7:52 pm)


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

August 29, 2014 7:53 pm  #52


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

His utility?


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August 30, 2014 5:01 am  #53


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

La Jolie wrote:

 

I think there are several reasons why Mycroft wanted to keep Sherlock out of prison at all cost.

1. Mycroft is one of the writers and what kind of boring Season 4 would that be?
2. Mycroft loves Sherlock and prison is a horrible place to be, in so many ways.
3. Among those things, Sherlock could be hurt/killed in prison by inmates that hate him.
4. The prison system as such would be negatively affected ("riots on a daily basis"). (Mycroft is a civil servant whose job it is to ensure the security of the Free World - these things matter to him.)
5. Drugs are easily available in prison, and being incarcerated would be very depressing and boring and turn Sherlock back into a junkie in no time.
6. On the MI6 mission, there would be possibilities to "rescue" him before the 6 months are up. There would also be no headaches what sort of life Sherlock would live after that mission, because if there was no trial and no conviction, he could just come back to 221b.

I wonder why the Powers That Be agreed to send Sherlock on that mission in the first place! I easily see how Mycroft would have wanted to keep Sherlock out of prison, but why would anyone else? Mycroft insists it is not brotherly compassion that makes him advocate his preferred solution, but then what is it?

 Great points, thank you!
The first one is especially convincing  .
Actually I didn't think past the "certain death" aspect of the MI6 mission (sentiment..), but if you do it makes a lot of sense.

 

August 30, 2014 7:23 am  #54


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I always assumed it would be a ' only Sherlock could survive that' type of scenario.
But as it is, we are never going to find out...maybe that's how they'll finish him off, in the end!


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August 30, 2014 7:57 am  #55


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

*Puts fingers in her ears*
*I don´t hear you, lalalalaaaa*
 

 

August 30, 2014 8:07 am  #56


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I don't actually think they will do that in the end, as it happens.
I do think they will show hom in retirement, bee keepingi


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August 30, 2014 10:49 am  #57


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Zatoichi wrote:

La Jolie wrote:

I think there are several reasons why Mycroft wanted to keep Sherlock out of prison at all cost.
1. Mycroft is one of the writers and what kind of boring Season 4 would that be?

The first one is especially convincing .

Yes, I think it's a hilarious sort of subtext that the character who is subtly in control of practically everything that happens in the story is played by the person who is directly in control of literally everything that happens in the story!

I keep expecting this little meta-scenes to pop up in the episodes, like

SHERLOCK: Mycroft!!! You can't talk like that to Mrs Hudson!
MYCROFT: Yes I can. I'm writing the bloody scripts!

or

SHERLOCK: Mycroft, what you've just suggested is something that you will never, ever see me do in my life.
MYCROFT: Oh, you just wait and see what I've come up with for Season 4!


And getting sidetracked even further, I don't think that there will be any sort of "official" conclusion to the series. No matter whether they'll make one more season or five, no matter whether Martin and Benedict will be grey and wearing reading glasses in the last one we ever see, it will always end with a semi-conclusion that makes sense within the season but doesn't exclude any continuations. Because that's how the business works. And it would also be nice for us fans, to be able to imagine that the stories just go on and on. I'd actually prefer it this way.


 


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

August 30, 2014 2:32 pm  #58


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

I have no doubt the series will run for many years.


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August 30, 2014 4:52 pm  #59


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Here is a little thing I did for tumblr which fits the topic:

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a503/susigo1/Sherlock/9ece94ec-1f24-414b-9b62-ed68950bbdaf_zps055048d3.png


This is what gives me hope

There has been much talk about the tarmac scene in which Mary seems to be the winner, triumphant in her red coat. But we should remember that this is not the last impression we get of her. 

Mary looks horrified. John is proud, happy, and relieved, a small smile on his lips. The game indeed is never over. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 30, 2014 4:58 pm  #60


Re: The tarmac scene, what do you think?

Very nice! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png
 And yes, that gives me hope, too.. a new game is on! 

 

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