BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock and Mary

Pav · August 14, 2014 2:15 pm

How come we don't have a thread about the relationship between Sherlock and Mary? I was watching Orange Is The New Black (amazing TV series from a women's prison) yesterday and there is this girl who is in love with her best friend and another girl says to her:
„Hey, you know that thing that happens to lesbians in high school? How we strike up a really intense best-friendship with a straight girl who's really into it. And we convince ourselves that friends is good, right? Until she gets a boyfriend. We hate that poor asshole with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns, a "He's not worthy of you," or whatever, when he's probably a decent-enough person, I mean, as guys go. Because what's really happening is that we're in love with our friend. But it turns out that by hating her boyfriend, you're just gonna drive her away. I mean, you gotta suck it up and make him like you.“
And suddenly I thought that was the reason why from the beginning Sherlock behaved so differently toward Mary than any other John's girlfriend. John mustn't be driven away so Sherlock counts pros and cons and concludes Mary is better as his ally. I don't think Sherlock is really fond of Mary, even before the shooting, although he accepts her and respects her as John's partner (he can see that this time John is serious (marriage)). Well, what do you think? Did / Does Sherlock like Mary? And how does Mary feel about Sherlock? How to define their relationship before / after the shooting?

maryagrawatson · August 14, 2014 3:11 pm

I completely disagree. I used to think that Sherlock was stringing Mary along to set her up for a fall, but upon further reflection, I believe he's genuinely fond of her. Right from the beginning, Mary has made it clear that she understands Sherlock comes as a package deal with John and she also sympathizes with Sherlock. I'm still on the fence about her feelings for him; if she likes him or just tolerates him and puts on a good show of looking out of him (eg. the "He's YouTubing serviettes!" scene) so that she can have John.

We didn't get much (enough) of Sarah in series one, but Sherlock respected so there is precendent for him not being a complete jerk around John's girlfriends.

Mary

tobeornot221b · August 14, 2014 4:02 pm

Yes, I think Sherlock likes her but at the same is also a bit wary of her. Remember his "liar" deduction or his puzzled face when he notices that Mary is familiar with skip codes.

Marta · August 14, 2014 10:16 pm

I think Sherlock was genuinely fond of Mary. That's the reason he didn't "decuce" her, his emotions overwhelmed his judgement. Mary wasn't like John's previous girlriends, she was smart, witty, understanding and kind to him - how much does that happen to Sherlock? - and I'm sure he saw she made John happy. I also think he liked her more than she liked him. For me, Mary looks like a person who can make friends with everyone, though it's not always a deep bond. She cares about Sherlock but she doesn't treat him as a part of her family (like, I think, Sherlock does). I don't think she fakes anything because of John.

Sherlockismyfix · August 14, 2014 10:52 pm

This is such a good question, Pav! I think Moftiss are clever enough to allow us to read it either way, and it may be that at the end of HLV they hadn't yet quite decide where they were going with this.

My personal reading is that Sherlock doesn't trust her, but needs to keep John safe and happy. Denouncing Mary could for reasons we do not yet know create a danger to John. I base this view on Sherlock's mind palace scene when he gets shot. The only reason he comes back from the dead is because the Moriarty vision tells him that John is in danger: "That wife!"

So I think he was playing a waiting game, and decided the best way to keep John safe was to keep an eye on Mary and make sure she believed herself to be safe. And it is possible that she will turn out to be deserving of our sympathy and John's love....

maryagrawatson · August 14, 2014 11:15 pm

Sherlockismyfix wrote:
My personal reading is that Sherlock doesn't trust her, but needs to keep John safe and happy. Denouncing Mary could for reasons we do not yet know create a danger to John. I base this view on Sherlock's mind palace scene when he gets shot. The only reason he comes back from the dead is because the Moriarty vision tells him that John is in danger: "That wife!"

BUT at that point he hadn't talked to Mary yet and had no idea why she did what she did. That all changed after the conversation at Baker Street before he collapsed.

So I think he was playing a waiting game, and decided the best way to keep John safe was to keep an eye on Mary and make sure she believed herself to be safe.

That's what I thought for the longest time, but the tarmac scene, with the kiss and hug and "That's my girl" seems so genuine.

We see him fake affection at the beginning of the episode with Janine. A lot has been said about his smiling dropping after the kissing, but he drops his act well before that. Go back and cue the scene where Janine is on his lap, just before she mentions inviting John and Mary for dinner. Sherlock sighs in annoyance and looks away from her. It's hammered into us that this is fake.

Now, compare the tarmac scene to the Molly and Sherlock scene after their investigation in TEH. He gives Molly a genuine, affectionate smile that reaches his eyes, just like he gives Mary on the tarmac.

And it is possible that she will turn out to be deserving of our sympathy and John's love....

I think she's going to end up the Severus Snape of this series... Some of you make get of what I speak...

Mary

Sherlockismyfix · August 15, 2014 12:11 am

Ah. Interesting! I see your point.

I like Mary, and look forward to seeing more of her, so I'm rooting for your version of events.

SusiGo · August 15, 2014 7:14 am

I admit I am not a friend of Mary's but the hug and kiss in the tarmac scene seems quite convincing.

But we should remember one thing:
My interpretation of the Baker Street scene (and I am not alone in this) is that Sherlock is trying to lull Mary into a false sense of security and to convince John to stay with her. He knows he will not be able to protect John at the moment because of his injury so he has to make John believe that he himself trusts Mary. Sorry, but all other explanations do not make sense to me.

Why?
Because look at the chain of events. Mary shoots Sherlock. He comes back to life only because he remembers that John is in danger because of his wife. The next thing we see is Mary threatening Sherlock while he is at his weakest. In Leinster Gardens she threatens again to kill him, i.e. everyone who is coming between her and John. And we are meant to believe that half an hour later everything is fine, she is the perfect wife for John, and has saved Sherlock's life by shooting him a bit lower or more to the side and calling an ambulance (for which there is no other proof than Sherlock's words and he was out cold after all but three seconds).

So I can only explain the tarmac scene by assuming that he puts on a show for John. If Sherlock wants to John to stay with Mary he must be convincing. And John by now knows that Sherlock can act so it has to be done well. And another thing - look how serious Sherlock's face gets the second Mary steps back.

Schmiezi · August 15, 2014 7:36 am

maryagrawatson wrote:
Sherlockismyfix wrote:
My personal reading is that Sherlock doesn't trust her, but needs to keep John safe and happy. Denouncing Mary could for reasons we do not yet know create a danger to John. I base this view on Sherlock's mind palace scene when he gets shot. The only reason he comes back from the dead is because the Moriarty vision tells him that John is in danger: "That wife!"
BUT at that point he hadn't talked to Mary yet and had no idea why she did what she did. That all changed after the conversation at Baker Street before he collapsed.

Let's look at why she shot him. She wanted John to stay with her and has therefore tried to kill his best friend. The same friend that could have helped her sorting out her problems with Magnussen. Sorry, but this does not sound like a justified reason to me. And I cannot believe that it was a justified reason for said bestfriend.

Mattlocked · August 15, 2014 8:15 am

Schmiezi wrote:
maryagrawatson wrote:
Sherlockismyfix wrote:
My personal reading is that Sherlock doesn't trust her, but needs to keep John safe and happy. Denouncing Mary could for reasons we do not yet know create a danger to John. I base this view on Sherlock's mind palace scene when he gets shot. The only reason he comes back from the dead is because the Moriarty vision tells him that John is in danger: "That wife!"
BUT at that point he hadn't talked to Mary yet and had no idea why she did what she did. That all changed after the conversation at Baker Street before he collapsed.
Let's look at why she shot him. She wanted John to stay with her and has therefore tried to kill his best friend. The same friend that could have helped her sorting out her problems with Magnussen. Sorry, but this does not sound like a justified reason to me. And I cannot believe that it was a justified reason for said bestfriend.

I think the same, Schmiezi. And the "That wife!"-scene with Moriarty took place in HIS mind palace, they are HIS thoughts after all. So he must know something. (And he has already deduced some strange and "not-so-good"-things right at the beginning, like "liar", so...........)

SusiGo · August 15, 2014 8:25 am

Yes to all this. We have been over this again and again and there is no reason why Mary had to shoot Sherlock. He offered to help her. She could have knocked out Magnussen. She could have agreed to a secret talk with Sherlock. She could have come clear to John. She could have done so many things and made the worst possible choice.

tobeornot221b · August 15, 2014 8:28 am

Schmiezi wrote:
Let's look at why she shot him. She wanted John to stay with her and has therefore tried to kill his best friend. The same friend that could have helped her sorting out her problems with Magnussen. Sorry, but this does not sound like a justified reason to me. And I cannot believe that it was a justified reason for said bestfriend.

No, Sherlock could not have helped her with her problems with Magnussen. She didn't come to him for help because she then would have needed to admit that there was something very wrong with her past. She didn't want Sherlock and John to know this at all.
The problem is that we must not loose sight of the original canon story where a woman is blackmailed (and not two women like here in Sherlock) who finally kills Milverton and Holmes and Watson let her escape. The writers made Mary take the place of the woman who wants to shoot Magnussen, she and not Lady Smallwoood which would have been according to canon. That Sherlock got away in the end (with approval of Lady Smallwood!) is such clever writing that combines both: he canon story and HLV where a second woman was involved.
Of course, by shooting Sherlock the relationship between Mary and Sherlock and Mary an John is more than clouded. There will be no easy solution, especially because now there's a baby involved.
The only option for the time being is what Sherlock did: de-escalation in order to keep more harm from John. That's why he chose to show John that he is in good terms with Mary in the tarmac scene.
According to the principle: Now that I forgave her you should forgive her, too.

SusiGo · August 15, 2014 8:31 am

Very clever, thank you, tobe. I keep forgetting canon.

But according to your interpretation then his feelings for Mary in the tarmac scene are not genuine but a deliberate show or example for John in order to protect him when Sherlock is not there anymore. Is this correct?

tobeornot221b · August 15, 2014 8:33 am

Yes, I'd say so.

SusiGo · August 15, 2014 8:36 am

Fine. For the me only explanation that makes sense.

SolarSystem · August 15, 2014 8:44 am

Concerning Mary's feelings for Sherlock: I wouldn't even deny that it might be possible that at one point she really came to like him. I'm just not sure: were there ever any genuine feelings involved on her part? She certainly knows that it's vital for her future with John that Sherlock likes her, that he sees a trustworthy person in her who is good for John. What she doesn't need is a detective who gets suspicious and starts to do investigations concerning her and her past.
Her "I like him" in TEH comes rather soon, and I think that even this might just be playacting - because from her point of view it's also important for John to believe that everything is fine, that he can have both of them, Mary and Sherlock, that he doesn't have to decide between the two of them and maybe ends up deciding against Mary.
So, in order to have the future that she wants to have, it's important for Mary to be unsuspicious, to be nice and likeable and charming and just someone everyone would like to hang out with - even Sherlock. Of course all of this goes to hell the moment Sherlock sees her in Magnussen's office.

Whisky · August 15, 2014 8:58 am

For me it comes all down to the shooting - at that point, it doesn't matter to me anymore if Mary initially liked Sherlock or if he liked her.
If it was a shot Sherlock could have easily survived, all fine.
But as we are shown it, Sherlock could have EASILY lost his life. It's not surgery, it's luck... and Mary can't have known Sherlock that well to trust he would pull through. Because he pulls through only because a) he falls down the right direction b) knows that shock will kill him and manages (!) not to let that happen c) is strong enough to hold on long enough for that ambulance to arrive.
That's many chances Mary is taking there. And I'm pretty sure, if Sherlock would have died, John wouldn't have forgiven Mary... loosing Sherlock again, after just having him back? His own wife, who knows EXACTLY how miserable and depressed John was during the time he thought Sherlock dead, would put John through all that again? That's not love for me.
I agree Mary was in a difficult situation, and I understand she didn't want John to know. But she willingly sacrifices Sherlock to keep her relationship with John safe. I have no idea why John forgives her. I'm sure he loves her, but would I happily spend my life with somebody who - worst case scenario - killed my best friend? I don't think so. Mary is afraid, alright, but she could have tried talking to John, to anybody, she could have chosen so many different routes.
I think Sherlock accepts Mary way of dealing with the Magnusson situation because he is equally unable to solve a situation in a normal, sane way (speak of jumping off roofs and not telling your best friend).
I think Sherlock understands Mary, but I don't think he likes her very much. Mary I'm not sure about. I think she likes Sherlock, but she is totally unable to act accordingly. John is very right - Sherlock and Mary are the similar ones here.

Last edited by Whisky (August 15, 2014 9:05 am)

SusiGo · August 15, 2014 8:59 am

Solar, I agree with many of the things you said. But for me Mary's behaviour changes even before the shooting.
In TEH she is nice and friendly and funny, tries to make sure that a) Sherlock trusts her and b) John understands that she accepts Sherlock and that he can have both of them in his life.
However, I see slight changes in her behaviour in TSoT. She tries to manipulate Sherlock, tells him in a way she knows him better than John does, then there is the Sholto exchange. To me it seems as if now that she is going to marry John, that she has him definitely for herself, she gets bolder towards Sherlock. Personally, I really, really do not like the "napkin" scene - not because of the napkins but because of the way she handles Sherlock. And I am still not sure if he really does not see it or decides to go along with it for John's sake (I think you all know the very short moment where his face falls when Mary does not look).
And in HLV she starts by pointing out to John that there are people who do not know Sherlock, i.e. who are not a crazy about him as he is.

Whisky - yes to all that.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 15, 2014 9:00 am)

Whisky · August 15, 2014 9:14 am

SusiGo wrote:
And in HLV she starts by pointing out to John that there are people who do not know Sherlock, i.e. who are not a crazy about him as he is.

I wonder about that. That maybe, in the long run, Mary will try to steer John away from Sherlock. She doesn't seem the kind of person who shares easily.
I'm thinking about the restaurant scene... Sherlock comes back to life, shocks John - and Mary seems really pissed of, because of all the pain he put John through. But on the other hand... yes, she had to live with a sad, broken John, but she had him to herself. In the restaurant scene, I can see honest outrage on her part. But she doesn't know Sherlock at that point. She doesn't know how he affects John.
And then I start to wonder... is she honestly glad for John that Sherlock is back? Does the initially like Sherlock because he is like he is (I really wonder what image she had of him before knowing him), or is she already playacting? She tries to talk John round... why does she do that? For Johns benefit? For Sherlocks? Has she got her own intentions?
I don't get Mary. She is a Severus Snape indeed, kind of. But I fear in an inverted way.

SolarSystem · August 15, 2014 9:15 am

Whisky, I have basically nothing to add.

Susi, yes, it seems that from a certain point on Mary feels pretty secure and believes that nothing can happen to her and her plans for a future with John anymore. Her advantage up until HLV is that she knows what Sherlock might be capable off and can act accordingly, whereas Sherlock apparently doesn't have a clue. Even if he might not like her as much as it seems in most scenes before HLV, he still has no idea who she really is - I guess we all agree that he is genuinly surprised when he finds her in Magnussen's office. He just didn't see it.
And I agree with everyone who says that after Mary shot him, everything Sherlock's doing is for the sake of keeping John as safe as possible.