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September 2, 2014 7:25 am  #141


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I really do hope they're going to explain the "surgery" thing in S4.  The only thing I can see that backs it up is that Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head.  Otherwise, she basically killed him (there was only the smallest change that he'd actually survive that), and Sherlock didn't give any explanation about how she might have made a mistake and not really meant do it.  If they're going to make us accept "surgery" then I do think they have to explain it, or I will be annoyed. 

Sherlock trying to convince Mary he believes that explanation is much easier to understand.  But that means he's bluffing, and I want to know how much he's bluffing about, especially as I do think there are signs that something is up in TSOT.

I think I'm going to have watch through S4 from the beginning and watch all Sherlock's interactions with Mary and try to work out he knows and when.   The fact that he doesn't guess it's her from the perfume is odd - even if he was completely innocent about her intentions, he knows that she's connected to Magnusson through Janine, so it isn't such a wild leap that she'd be there.   I'd think he was trying to fool John, if it wasn't for the fact that he seems genuinely surprised to see Mary.  Which suggests that he didn't suspect anything previously.  (Except, that I do find something slightly odd about the way he announces her name - it's a bit corny.  Maybe he just enjoys the drama of it, but still.  And would he really assume that Lady Smallwood, who appears to be somebody very important in governement, would break in with a gun when she'd already put Sherlock on the case?).

Mary and Sherlock seem open and even affectionate together before HLV.   But he seems natural with Janine at the wedding too - yet it turns out that he's using her to get to Magnusson (which possibly only occurs to him after the wedding, but doesn't explain why he acts differently with her than he has with any other woman or person in the past).

I also keep thinking that the Magnusson connection is established in TEH.  It seems as if Sherlock only gets involved after Lady Smallwood contacts him, but could he be keeping an eye on Magnusson in some way all along?  He's quite aware of him and sees him as evil, presumably not just because of Lady Smallwood's story.  And Sherlock's so involved in the wedding, checking out who the guests are and their backgrounds.  Does he wonder about Mary being best friends with Magnusson's PA?  Surely he does.  Does he put together all the little clues (Mary working out the code, no guests from more than five years ago, etc.), or do they really not mean anything until she shoots him? 
 

 

September 2, 2014 7:36 am  #142


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

besleybean wrote:

Yes, both seem genuine to me.

 
I'm truly sorry but if those two scenes are supposed to be genuine and never come up again they will range among my top5 of badly done TV and Movie scenes. Which would be very sad in this show I fell sooooo head over heels in love with.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

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September 2, 2014 7:40 am  #143


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

You have a point there, mrshouse. The interesting thing is that I cannot remember any other scene from the whole show where I get this feeling of disbelief. They all felt right in their way and this is not the case here. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 2, 2014 7:48 am  #144


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

mrshouse wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Yes, both seem genuine to me.

 
I'm truly sorry but if those two scenes are supposed to be genuine and never come up again they will range among my top5 of badly done TV and Movie scenes. Which would be very sad in this show I fell sooooo head over heels in love with.

Of course one could argue that they have tough times behind them, that things weren't all that easy for quite some time and that it might still feel a bit weird for all of them to spend Christmas together/to say goodbye. That's why those two scenes might not feel very genuine.
Yes, one could see it like that.
But I agree with you, mrshouse. I already said in another thread how I tend to interpret John's "prepared words", and Sherlocks "That's my girl" just feels totally absurd to me.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 2, 2014 8:13 am  #145


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Oh, I must be the only person that liked the Christmas reconciliation and the tarmac scene. Or maybe it's just me wanting them to be emotionally genuine with all my heart...


Liberty wrote:

Mary and Sherlock seem open and even affectionate together before HLV. But he seems natural with Janine at the wedding too - yet it turns out that he's using her to get to Magnusson (which possibly only occurs to him after the wedding, but doesn't explain why he acts differently with her than he has with any other woman or person in the past).

I see a big difference though between Sherlock's attitude towards Mary and Janine. Knowing what we know from HLV and then re-watching TSOT, I always get the feeling that Mary was simply thrust upon Sherlock (by John) but then he was surprised to discover that John having a girlfriend and getting ready for marriage wasn't quite as horrible as he'd thought it would be, because it was Mary and not someone else. I find it interesting that during the reunion in TEH, Sherlock starts out by completely ignoring her, and then bit by bit acknowledges that she 1. exists und 2. really means a lot to John and 3. is actually a strong and clever woman in her own right, worth not only his attention but also his friendship. But there always seems to be an element of genuine surprise in it. 

With Janine, it's calculation from the start. Having seen HLV, can't you tell that from the first moment we see them together outside the church, he's very deliberately putting on his best Sherlock Holmes act ("Oh, emotion? Me?") for her and he does it for the sole purpose of making her feel like what we fangirls dream about all the time, that she is the one woman for whom he will change, that she is the one who will turn him from a heartless machine into a loving human being. He keeps playing that game throughout the wedding - being Sherlock Holmes at his worst but then telling her the "secret" about dancing, throwing his buttonhole flower to her - all designed to make her feel really special. It's not natural at all.  He's already being what Janine, much later, rightly and justly calls a manipulative bastard.


Liberty wrote:

And Sherlock's so involved in the wedding, checking out who the guests are and their backgrounds. Does he wonder about Mary being best friends with Magnusson's PA? Surely he does. Does he put together all the little clues (Mary working out the code, no guests from more than five years ago, etc.), or do they really not mean anything until she shoots him? ).

Well, that's one of those questions that we'll never get an answer to, isn't it? I can ponder it for hours and still not come up with a definite answer.

I like to think that he had all the little things about Mary, about there being more to Mary than meets the eye, filed away somewhere in his brain, but it didn't come to the forefront of his mind until it was too late. ("You were slow" is what Mary very rightly tells him in Leinster Gardens.) 

Which is something I can accept concerning the smaller hints (excellent memory, recognising skip codes), but find hard to believe when it comes to her connection with CAM. If he put that much effort into investigating David's link with Mary, he must have put as much time if not more into investigating Janine's link with her, and would have discovered what was behind it. He even mentions that connection to John on their way up to Magnussen's appartment, and he still didn't guess it was Mary he was facing only minutes later?   



Oh, here's another thought. What about Mary and Janine after the shooting, actually? "I'll give your love to John and Mary" is what Janine tells Sherlock when he's in hospital, but I can't quite see Janine and Mary's friendship continue as before. After all, Mary exploited Janine too, and knocked her on the head something fearful... but you can't tie up all the loose ends, I suppose.

Last edited by La Jolie (September 2, 2014 8:18 am)


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

September 2, 2014 8:27 am  #146


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

La Jolie, I agree with you that Janine and Mary are hardly comparable. But I see it this way: you have a point there about the Sherlock-Mary relationship in TEH and TSoT, Sherlock acknowledges Mary and might be a bit astounded that things don't turn out to be all that bad with her. But for me this changes significantly with the beginning of HLV. Right from the start Mary is annoyed, snarky, not supportive anymore. This goes along with costumes, makeup and scenery lightning, she's way less attractive than before. And Janine is just what she is: a bit manipulative, a bit mean, but not in an entirely repulsive way, a bit selling her soul for the yellow press, but mostly comfortable with it.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

September 2, 2014 8:59 am  #147


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I agree,  La Jolie, but some of the interaction with Janine actualy seemed genuine to me on first viewing.  Talking about dancing, Sherlock checking out possible conquests for her - it was rather sweet.  But unless I'm going to see it as the "new" Sherlock, it's out of character.   And anything out of character seems to be flagging something up.   It reminds me of Sherlock courting publicity at the beginning of TRF - we never go back and get told that he was doing that for a reason, but I think it's clear that he was drawing Moriarty out.   So it makes sense that he was drawing Magnusson out (or something along those lines) even before Lady Smallwood appears.  Could it really be coincidence that he was out-of-character nice and flirty with Janine, and then just happened to have to use her to get to Magnusson afterwards? 

Yes, I agree that he would have investigated Janine before the wedding.  And the friendship is odd.  How did they meet?  Where do they socialise?   They have quite different lives and don't seem as if they would be best friends.  I mean, obviously Mary has made them into best friends, but I think Sherlock would notice that it's not something that would have happened naturally. 

After the shooting, does Janine know about Mary?  She didn't necessarily see her face.   I suspect not, as Mary seems to want to control anyone who does know, and you'd think she'd go after Janine if she thought Janine knew. 

Oh, another thing about TSOT and Sherlock knowing.  He reads out the telegrams until he reads out CAM's one, then he speeds through the rest, as though they aren't significant.   He seems to know the CAM one is important. 
 

     Thread Starter
 

September 2, 2014 9:05 am  #148


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

The way I understand Sherlock's behaviour towards Janine in TSoT is that he's not trying to manipulate her at all, but he's trying to manipulate himself. He is trying to be part of this whole wedding business - mostly for John, but maybe also a bit for himself because deep inside he knows that things will change and that it might be inevitable to 'do emotions' from now on. So the wedding is a good opportunity to start. At the end of the episode we see that the 'experiment' is over and has probably failed. He still is an outsider, he doesn't really belong. Janine is dancing with someone else and Sherlock is all alone.
I never saw him manipulating her in that episode. I saw him trying to be someone else (maybe the real Sherlock Holmes who's hidden underneath all that "Alone is what protects me" stuff?) - but for his own sake, not for Janine's. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:14 am  #149


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Now you made me sad again, Solar. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/sad.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:21 am  #150


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Shock blanket and a cuppa, dear? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:24 am  #151


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

SolarSystem wrote:

The way I understand Sherlock's behaviour towards Janine in TSoT is that he's not trying to manipulate her at all, but he's trying to manipulate himself. He is trying to be part of this whole wedding business - mostly for John, but maybe also a bit for himself because deep inside he knows that things will change and that it might be inevitable to 'do emotions' from now on. So the wedding is a good opportunity to start. At the end of the episode we see that the 'experiment' is over and has probably failed. He still is an outsider, he doesn't really belong. Janine is dancing with someone else and Sherlock is all alone.
I never saw him manipulating her in that episode. I saw him trying to be someone else (maybe the real Sherlock Holmes who's hidden underneath all that "Alone is what protects me" stuff?) - but for his own sake, not for Janine's. 

O God ... *sits in the office ... swallowing ...* http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


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Ten:" I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye."
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170428/gxfakjvq.png
Sherlock: "I heard you.”

"Temptation coursing through our veins " 
(Tony Hadley)

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:25 am  #152


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

You would make me sad, too, Solar, if I agreed with you. Thankfully I don't. But isn't that what's wonderful about this show, that there are layers and layers of meaning and that you can read lots of scenes this way or that and never get to an end because you can never be sure there isn't even more behind it? I don't think I've ever been in a fandom before where any attempt at character and plot analysis has been as delightfully complex and as frustrating at the same time!


Liberty, I forgot that probably Janine has no idea that it was Mary in the shooting. Though Janine must have noticed afterwards that there was a slight strain on John's and Mary's relationship, if she really is a close friend of Mary's. But yes, there are inconsistencies there as well. It's hard to imagine how it would actually have played out.


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:35 am  #153


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

La Jolie wrote:

You would make me sad, too, Solar, if I agreed with you. Thankfully I don't. But isn't that what's wonderful about this show, that there are layers and layers of meaning and that you can read lots of scenes this way or that and never get to an end because you can never be sure there isn't even more behind it? I don't think I've ever been in a fandom before where any attempt at character and plot analysis has been as delightfully complex and as frustrating at the same time!

I couldn't agree more with you on this. And I guess without all those layers we wouldn't be able to survive the hiatus, because discussions would be over within three weeks, and then what? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:38 am  #154


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Then we'd be left with nothing but fanfic and similar atrocities. Or we'd actually all have to go and get a life. Thank God we don't.  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

September 2, 2014 11:39 am  #155


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

In my opinion, Sherlock didn´t manipulate Janine - it was just the opposite. Let´s look again at the scene at the beginning of TSOT (from the transcription of wonderful Ariane de Vere, of course):

=10pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=10pt=11pt=10ptJANINE: The famous Mr Holmes! I’m very pleased to meet you. But no sex, okay?
SHERLOCK (startled): Um, sorry?
JANINE (laughing): You don’t have to look so scared. I’m only messing. Bridesmaid, best man ... It’s a bit traditional.
(She gently punches his arm. He looks down with distaste.)
SHERLOCK: Is it?
JANINE (a little awkwardly): But not obligatory(!)
SHERLOCK: If that’s the sort of thing you’re looking for ... (he jerks his head towards one of the wedding guests) ... the man over there in blue is your best bet. Recently divorced doctor with a ginger cat ... (there’s a close-up of a ginger cat hair stuck on the man’s suit, and the sound of a miaow) ... a barn conversion ... (close-up of sawdust on the man’s shoes) ... and a history of erectile dysfunction.
(The close-up pulls out a little to reveal that the man is wearing cowboy boots. There’s the sound of a bullet ricocheting off something with a high-pitched ping, like in a Western movie. Sherlock blinks.)
SHERLOCK: Reviewing that information, possibly not your best bet.
JANINE: Yeah, maybe not.
SHERLOCK (looking puzzled): Sorry – there was one more deduction there than I was expecting.
JANINE: Mr Holmes ... (she takes his arm) ... you’re going to be incredibly useful.
(Again Sherlock looks down at her hand. He frowns.)

It´s pretty obvious, Sherlock was absolutely disinterested in Janine like she was thin air to him until she herself had iniciated and forced the contact between them. She was pretty aggressive about it, mentioning sex right away and taking his arm and practically kidnapping him for herself - as unsubtle as humanly possible. And she continued to do it not only through the rest of TSOT but possibly even before HLV.

So who manipulated whom, exactly?

We must remember that Janine can have her own hidden reasons for being CAM´s secretary and for befriending Mary and Sherlock. It´s really hard for me to see her as Sherlock´s victim and not as a skilled manipulator.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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September 2, 2014 11:55 am  #156


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

nakahara wrote:

So who manipulated whom, exactly?

Janine was manipulating Sherlock who in turn manipulated her by letting it happen and letting her think she was getting somewhere with it.

As our old friend the cabbie from ASIP would say: Is it a bluff? Or a double bluff? Or a triple bluff? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cool.png


He knew who she was (meaning who she worked for). She was never truly going to be thin air to him once he found out.

And she's certainly a skilled manipulator but she met her match.

We must remember that Janine can have her own hidden reasons for being CAM´s secretary and for befriending Mary and Sherlock. It´s really hard for me to see her as Sherlock´s victim and not as a skilled manipulator.

The jury is still out on that one. I'll start wondering about this as soon as I see the Janine actress' name on a cast list for series 4, but not before.
 


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

September 2, 2014 12:03 pm  #157


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Yes, definitely Janine can have her own reasons ... after all, CAM has something on her, that we don't know about.  I agree with you that she's a manipulator too.   But the only good outcome for her in the end is escaping CAM.  During the process she has a best friend and boyfriend who are both using her for their own purposes.  I feel a bit sorry for, although I wish I knew more about her and her motivations. 

Aggressive, kidnapping, though?  I didn't see that.  She looks just like she's having fun and flirting a little (although I do agree that she might have another agenda).  I think she's genuinely attracted to him.   I don't think it's aggressive to show you're interested in a guy.   Whatever she's doing, Sherlock plays along (and vice versa?). 

     Thread Starter
 

September 2, 2014 12:07 pm  #158


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Liberty wrote:

Aggressive, kidnapping, though?  I didn't see that.  She looks just like she's having fun and flirting a little (although I do agree that she might have another agenda).  I think she's genuinely attracted to him.   I don't think it's aggressive to show you're interested in a guy.   Whatever she's doing, Sherlock plays along (and vice versa?). 

Of course, my words to describe her actions are a bit strong, but... don´t you find it strange that she picked the weirdest guy in the room for her flirting? The man who almost jumped out of his skin in shock when she mentioned sex? Janine doesn´t strike me as Molly, so I don´t believe that she is so smitten with Sherlock at the first sight. I sense some other intent in her....


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 2, 2014 12:16 pm  #159


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Well, for one thing Janine might regard Sherlock as a challenge because he seems to be as attractive as unattainable. That may well stir her ambition. In the course of the reception her attitude towards him changes, she uses his entertaining deductions for her own purposes and he ends up alone on the dance floor. 
Of course there are other theories, especially concerning her and Mary being somehow in cahoots with each other and/or Moriarty which would change the situation very much. 

And I would not say the only good outcome for her is getting away from CAM (provided what he says about her at Appledore is the truth). After all she ends up with a cottage in Sussex. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 2, 2014 12:51 pm  #160


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

But did she really pick Sherlock in the first place? She was chief bridesmaid, he was best man, they naturally ended up side by side on various occasions, I would assume. If she had just been another wedding guest, they probably never would have spoken to each other - unless of course one of them (or both of them?) really intended to use the other one. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

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