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September 4, 2014 6:17 am  #201


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

And I think it is important to remember -as an answer to a Snooties post- that it took John 6 months to come to terms, he did not decide straight away that he wants to stay in the dark about Marys past. That gave her six months to speak up, last chance on the (awful) christmas scene instead of getting snarky.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

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September 4, 2014 6:25 am  #202


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Though they made up at the end anyway.


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September 4, 2014 6:28 am  #203


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Just deleted that in my mind palace, bb...http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

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September 21, 2014 3:07 pm  #204


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I've been rereading this article about TSOT.

“I thought what Sherlock would do,” says Moffat, “is he’d sit there and think, Everyone’s gonna think I’m gonna make a right cock-up of this. Everyone thinks I’m going to screw it up. So, I’m going to make them think that, and then of course I’m going to say something lovely. And I always thought he’d do it well because he’s a genius and he cares about his mate — he wouldn’t let his mate down. I think he paced all night to make sure it was moving.”

So that helps confirm that Sherlock knew and planned the effect of his speech.   It's sincere, but it's supposed to be moving.   Asking John if he got it wrong is ... acting, for comic effect? (And quite possibly the "best man" thing too). 

Production designer Arwel Jones confirms as much, by pointing out that the proof of Sherlock’s real feelings can be found throughout last night’s episode, “The Sign of Three”: If you look closely in the background of Sherlock’s apartment, for example, there’s a model of the wedding venue, and on his laptop there are drafts for the design of the wedding stationery. “He loves John, and he’s a control freak, so he’s actually very involved with the wedding planning,” says Jones.

He's a control freak over some things, but ... wedding stationery?   I can understand him spending ages over the speech, researching it, and drafting in LeStrade because that matters to John.  Or even the stag night, because again, that's for John.  But controlling the stationery and napkins isn't something Sherlock can do for John, or that John would want to have done for him.  

“He’s not a sociopath, nor is he high-functioning. He’d really like to be a sociopath. But he’s so fucking not. The wonderful drama of Sherlock Holmes is that he’s aspiring to this extraordinary standard. He is at root an absolutely ordinary man with a very, very big brain. He’s repressed his emotions, his passions, his desires, in order to make his brain work better — in itself, a very emotional decision, and it does suggest that he must be very emotional if he thinks emotions get in the way. I just think Sherlock Holmes must be bursting!”

Just putting this bit in because I think it's key to how Moffat writes Sherlock.  There never really was a sociopathic, unemotional, uncaring Sherlock.   We were seeing repression and disguise all along.

So know this: Today, you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved. In short, the two people who love you most in all this world. And I know I speak for Mary as well when I say we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that.

It's kind of sad, given what we find out in HLV, that his declaration of love is so mixed up with Mary.  Mary lets John down within weeks of the wedding (how long is it?) and the joint vow is broken.  If Sherlock was being a control freak over the wedding, to the extent of the stationery and researching the guests, then why didn't he research Mary?  He didn't have a problem researching John (to find out his middle name).    Was he really so completely free from doubt about her, so trusting in John's judgment over a fairly recent relationship?  I think the evidence is pointing to Sherlock already working on Magnusson during TSOT and courting Janine for that purpose - it's so difficult to believe that he didn't pick on Mary.  Not only that, but that he aligns himself in the extreme to her.   During HLV, I think he's pretending to align himself to her - does that mean he's pretending in TSOT?  Right at the key point of that speech, when he doesn't need to?

     Thread Starter
 

September 21, 2014 4:50 pm  #205


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Zatoichi wrote:

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

And in a show that is essentially about murder, it seems like splitting hairs to have a problem with a named character being a criminal more than a nameless character. The show is about crime and violence and John and Sherlock's addictions to such things. And I think it's assumed that the audience doesn't have a problem with such things either. Or we wouldn't watch it.

This is fanciful tv after all.

We may not have problems watching Sherlock and John deal with murderers and criminals, but welcoming a criminal that nearly killed off one of the protagonists and badly betrayed the other back into their "circle of trust" is a whole different story..

I might buy that Mary shot because she was desperate, and because that´s what her trained assassin reflexes told her to do. But I don´t buy that she never even once tried to explain herself when she had the chance afterwards, instead she went after Sherlock with a gun, ready to finish him off for good in Leinster Gardens. If Sherlock hadn´t took the precaution of her picture on the facade it´d have been the end of him.
 

I just re-watched ASiP yesterday. John is a cold-blooded killer from the first episode! And we all accept that. Maybe that's why he's able to accept Mary's past too.

 

September 21, 2014 8:16 pm  #206


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Yep. John and Mary are exactly the same and kill (or almost kill) for exactly the same reasons. Right.

Last edited by SolarSystem (September 21, 2014 8:17 pm)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 21, 2014 8:20 pm  #207


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

And in a show that is essentially about murder, it seems like splitting hairs to have a problem with a named character being a criminal more than a nameless character. The show is about crime and violence and John and Sherlock's addictions to such things. And I think it's assumed that the audience doesn't have a problem with such things either. Or we wouldn't watch it.

This is fanciful tv after all.

We may not have problems watching Sherlock and John deal with murderers and criminals, but welcoming a criminal that nearly killed off one of the protagonists and badly betrayed the other back into their "circle of trust" is a whole different story..

I might buy that Mary shot because she was desperate, and because that´s what her trained assassin reflexes told her to do. But I don´t buy that she never even once tried to explain herself when she had the chance afterwards, instead she went after Sherlock with a gun, ready to finish him off for good in Leinster Gardens. If Sherlock hadn´t took the precaution of her picture on the facade it´d have been the end of him.
 

I just re-watched ASiP yesterday. John is a cold-blooded killer from the first episode! And we all accept that. Maybe that's why he's able to accept Mary's past too.

John kills only when he knows that Shelock's life is in danger. 
 


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September 21, 2014 8:22 pm  #208


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

"He didn’t fire until I was in immediate danger, though, so strong moral principle."
Sherlock, not knowing that he's speaking of John at this moment.
I wonder about Mary's strong morale principle. Haven't found it yet.
 

Last edited by tobeornot221b (September 21, 2014 8:23 pm)


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
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September 21, 2014 8:27 pm  #209


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

If we're very, very 'lucky', they'll present it to us in S4...


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 21, 2014 8:32 pm  #210


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

In a teeny weeny box ...


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... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 23, 2014 4:35 pm  #211


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

tonnaree wrote:

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:


We may not have problems watching Sherlock and John deal with murderers and criminals, but welcoming a criminal that nearly killed off one of the protagonists and badly betrayed the other back into their "circle of trust" is a whole different story..

I might buy that Mary shot because she was desperate, and because that´s what her trained assassin reflexes told her to do. But I don´t buy that she never even once tried to explain herself when she had the chance afterwards, instead she went after Sherlock with a gun, ready to finish him off for good in Leinster Gardens. If Sherlock hadn´t took the precaution of her picture on the facade it´d have been the end of him.
 

I just re-watched ASiP yesterday. John is a cold-blooded killer from the first episode! And we all accept that. Maybe that's why he's able to accept Mary's past too.

John kills only when he knows that Shelock's life is in danger. 
 

 
I think the 'imminent danger' is exaggerated. There's no weapon on Sherlock. He could have overpowered that guy if he had wanted to. John could have fired a warning shot to shake Sherlock out of his trance of proving his intellect. There were alternatives to shooting to kill. But John didn't take them.

 

September 23, 2014 5:50 pm  #212


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I don't think Sherlock was that much at risk (he says he never guesses - actually, he does, sometimes, but he has to be pretty sure and have some evidence.  If the pill really was just a 50/50 chance, he wouldn't have taken it).   However, I don't think John can actually hear the conversation.   He doesn't know what's going on and doesn't know the gun (if he can see it) is a fake.  All he can see is Sherlock about to take the pill, but he doesn't know why.  He can't even see Sherlock's expression, I don't think, so he doesn't know how he's being coerced into it.  So he didn't gamble, and went straight for a kill shot. 

John has nothing to gain for himself from taking that shot - he's not in any danger.  But he does have something to lose.  He's got an illegal weapon and he's killing somebody, not in self-defence - to protect somebody from what might be their own stupidity (Sherlock isn't under any threat to take that pill).  It's selfless on his part, and entirely for Sherlock.

I think this might be one of the things that was on Sherlock's mind when he wrote the part of the speech about John saving lives.   It didn't ring true to me, because Sherlock is so much the saviour of lives, including John's, AND he saves John in other ways.   But I think this first case together establishes something very important between them and by TGG it's clear how far John will go to save him if necessary.  (Not just saving his life - I think the fact that Sherlock would even consider taking the pill shows a lack of grounding or something that John brings to him).   Sherlock saves, but he doesn't need that stated publicly.  He has more or less heard it from John at the graveside.  John does seem to appreciate it being said publicly. 
 

Last edited by Liberty (September 23, 2014 6:05 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

October 31, 2014 8:03 am  #213


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I was thinking about the wedding speech again, and how Sherlock entirely focuses on his relationship with John, rather than John himself.   It occurred to me that there is nothing, really, about John on his own. Obviously he's going to talk about what he's seen, but - nothing about Afghanistan?  John's work?  His army career?  His background?  It's as if he's incapable of seeing John as having a life outside of him.  I suppose it's the same at the begining of TEH, when he expects that he can just pick up the relationship with John where they left off. 

It's a very self-centred view (which I suppose, I can see might fit with the character).  He also seems to accept Mary as an extension of John (which is maybe why he missed clues about her - if he did miss them).  He's not really interested in John beyond the point where they intersect, but at that point he seems to see them almost as a unit. 

Last edited by Liberty (October 31, 2014 5:27 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

October 31, 2014 8:27 am  #214


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

You are right, and my 'philosophical' take on this is that they are nothing without each other. They don't work, they don't function without the other one, they just can't be without each other. They need each other. This goes both ways. Of course they lived their lives before they met, but their lives only just really begun when they met. So it makes total sense to me that Sherlock focuses on their relationship in his wedding speech. Let's face it, pretty much everything in that episode is about Sherlock and John, and since Sherlock is the one giving the speech we see most of it through his eyes.
And yes, it fits his character to always see John in relation to himself. This might turn (or already have turned...) into a problem eventually, but even then... that's what their relationship is about. Everything concerning Sherlock is connected to John and vice versa. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 31, 2014 8:36 am  #215


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Oh, I don´t think Sherlock sees John only in relation to himself.
But the wedding speech was his last chance to express how much he values John and what John had meant for him.
He didn´t spoke about it up to this moment (maybe because he was unaware that John considers him his best friend) and he fully believed that after John marries Marry, their ways will be parted and he would not have a chance to do it anymore. So he omitted those things you mentioned and centered on his... hmm, I would call it "a declaration of love", really. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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October 31, 2014 8:40 am  #216


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Liberty: I see it in a different light and the clue to this is Sholto. The fact that Sherlock does not know anything about Sholto (who is so important to John and vice versa that he comes out of hiding to attend the wedding) proves that John has not told Sherlock much or even anything about his past. 

Which goes both ways because in TEH we learn that John possibly did not know Sherlock's parents were still alive and definitely not what they were like. 

I think the moment they met both started something new whatever we want to call it and that is was a life-changing moment for both. There was no need to talk about the past because what mattered was the here and now. 

I am sure that the only things Sherlock knew about John were those he deduced himself (Afghanistan, army doctor, etc.). And John only gets bits and pieces as well - the drugs, the difficult relationship with Mycroft, etc. 

Therefore it is quite logical that in the speech Sherlock talks about what matters to him and what he knows - their life together. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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October 31, 2014 10:08 am  #217


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

nakahara, Susi: Yes. This episode is about Sherlock saying goodbye to John and the life they shared. And even though they hadn't shared that life for two years when Sherlock was away, in my headcanon those two years have been hell for both of them because they couldn't be together. They complete each other and need to be together - as can be seen with John in HLV.
So it's a declaration of love indeed. And yes, we also learn that their lifes before they met aren't important enough for them to talk about them. Good point, Susi. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 31, 2014 10:12 am  #218


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Plus, I want to add that John secretiveness might have played a role in this.
When I remember his unwillingness to reveal his second name to Sherlock I can imagine he was similarily secretive about things concerning his past.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

October 31, 2014 10:22 am  #219


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Good point, nakahara. And, yes, it is a declaration of love. 

As for John's secretiveness - not sure about the blog but in the series at least Sherlock has never met Harry while John knows Sherlock's whole family and has even met Seb Wilkes from uni. Sherlock, however, only knows Mike Stamford and not because John introduced them but the other way round. 
Therefore Sherlock in his speech concentrates on what is important to him - John. Not John's military career or medical jobs, but John as a person and his importance for Sherlock. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 31, 2014 5:30 pm  #220


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

And him being a man of action and saving lives.


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