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September 1, 2014 6:41 am  #41


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

Why would that make Sherlock a psychopath? I don´t agree with that conclusion. Moriarty is an evil which proved to be unassailable by the justice system and which had its finger on the trigger to kill three people. To get rid of such a threat in such an elaborate way counts as self-defense and does not qualify as a psychopathic act at all.
Also let´s not forget that we talk about a man who plans the murder of friends and family as mental exercise. He would strangle Mycroft, he would poison John.. what would he do to a lunatic mastermind who threatened to burn the heart of him? Meet him with nothing but a fake code and the vague hope he will get everyone out of it alive? I don´t think so..

Actually, I honestly thought the comments at John's wedding were just Sherlock, in his ham-handed way, trying to be funny. (In context, that makes the most sense to me. ) 

Regardless, he's a different guy now than he was in s1 & 2. 

Just two more thoughts regarding the quoted part (in an attempt to get on-topic again ;P):

1.: If we´re still talking about whether Sherlock was capable of steering Moriarty towards suicide then we´re talking about S2 Sherlock, so the changes he underwent during hiatus don´t come into account. 

2.: Of course he wasn´t serious about killing anyone close to him, but this is a thought you can´t make up during a speech while simultanuously trying to figure out a murder, it must have crossed his mind before. And while he would never act on such thoughts on people he loves, I think there is no such restraint when faced with a death-threat to himself and to his beloved ones. He is no psychopathic murderer, but I also think he is quite capable of violence if it serves a goal he considers worthy, as we have seen on various occasions. That does make him dangerous and morally grey, and I understand why some find the thought disturbing, but I think that´s just the way he is presented thoughout the series, from the cabbie to Magnussen. His motivations are noble but the means he employs to reach his goals are not.. (and if we´re honest the show wouldn´t work if they were).

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 1, 2014 6:43 am)

 

September 1, 2014 7:04 am  #42


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

The thing that bothered me about Sherlock when I was watching S2 was that he kept so much from John.  It wasn't even as if they instinctively understood each other and didn't need to talk.  John really didn't have a clue, not just about what was going on, but about what Sherlock was feeling, and by extension, who Sherlock was.   It started off being Sherlock's fault, but I think by S3 it's John's fault too, because he just doesn't want to know.     Maybe he prefers the darker, more dangerous, cold-hearted, psychopathic character that's in his imagination over the real man who cares so much he'll give his life for him, and he tries to cling to that view of Sherlock despite the evidence.  (But at the same time, thankfully, he does seem to recognise the good in Sherlock - the best and wisest man, the most human).  It's a little disturbing.   I think John is sometimes presented as being Sherlock's moral compass and he likes to believe himself such, but Sherlock is the more morally good. 

Apart from his lack of communication, I agree with all your examples, Zatoichi.  He's also the one who comforts Sarah in TBB, he's caring towards the house mistress after shouting at her in TRF, etc.  I think he's caring and un-psychopathic throughout.   Even if you look at his cases, it's not just about the challenge of finding the villain - it's about stopping other people being hurt. 

I do think there's a change in S3, but I agree that some of that (not all of it) is a natural extension of S2.  TRF shows just how far he will go to save people, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that he's so selfless in S3.  I think what struck me about S3 is that he should have come back as a hero, and yet people still see him as a sociopath (and he continues to try to create that image), including John, who should know better.  But doesn't want to know better.   It still bothers me that Sherlock doesn't seem to get any thanks for what he had to go through during the two years, and seems to spend the rest of S3 apologising for saving people's lives. 

Anyway, that was off topic too (sorry), but no, it doesn't make Sherlock psychopathic if he talks Moriarty into suicide, just clever.  His motivations are about saving people.  Claming that he's not a hero, that he's not an angel - all lies.   He's just prepared to use methods that other people wouldn't.
(Edit: sorry, I wrote this post before I saw your post above, Zatoichi)

Just adding: I think it's very fitting that Sherlock uses something that Moriarty used right back in the first episode (talking people into killing themselves).   Except Sherlock does it properly.  Moriarty (and the cabbie's) methods aren't very clever at all - just threatening violence to the person or their loved ones if they don't do what they're told.  How do you talk somebody into doing what you want, without threats?  You make them think it was their idea.  Which is what Sherlock does.

Last edited by Liberty (September 1, 2014 7:37 am)

     Thread Starter
 

September 1, 2014 7:32 am  #43


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

Zatoichi wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

Why would that make Sherlock a psychopath? I don´t agree with that conclusion. Moriarty is an evil which proved to be unassailable by the justice system and which had its finger on the trigger to kill three people. To get rid of such a threat in such an elaborate way counts as self-defense and does not qualify as a psychopathic act at all.
Also let´s not forget that we talk about a man who plans the murder of friends and family as mental exercise. He would strangle Mycroft, he would poison John.. what would he do to a lunatic mastermind who threatened to burn the heart of him? Meet him with nothing but a fake code and the vague hope he will get everyone out of it alive? I don´t think so..

Actually, I honestly thought the comments at John's wedding were just Sherlock, in his ham-handed way, trying to be funny. (In context, that makes the most sense to me. ) 

Regardless, he's a different guy now than he was in s1 & 2. 

Just two more thoughts regarding the quoted part (in an attempt to get on-topic again ;P):

1.: If we´re still talking about whether Sherlock was capable of steering Moriarty towards suicide then we´re talking about S2 Sherlock, so the changes he underwent during hiatus don´t come into account. 

2.: Of course he wasn´t serious about killing anyone close to him, but this is a thought you can´t make up during a speech while simultanuously trying to figure out a murder, it must have crossed his mind before. And while he would never act on such thoughts on people he loves, I think there is no such restraint when faced with a death-threat to himself and to his beloved ones. He is no psychopathic murderer, but I also think he is quite capable of violence if it serves a goal he considers worthy, as we have seen on various occasions. That does make him dangerous and morally grey, and I understand why some find the thought disturbing, but I think that´s just the way he is presented thoughout the series, from the cabbie to Magnussen. His motivations are noble but the means he employs to reach his goals are not.. (and if we´re honest the show wouldn´t work if they were).

I gotta ask this: is an author like Stephen King morally grey, because he has to play with horrible ideas of people damaging each other? 

I'd like to challenge the idea that *thought*-- makes you a dangerous, to the extent that anyone who thinks thoughts that are considered non-mainstream and "not good"-- should be regarded as a dangerous person. 

Sherlock has shown no signs of being on the road to becoming Jeffery Dahmer. 
Sherlock solves crimes. Why would we not expect him to learn to think in the same way as a killer? Isn't that what FBI profilers do? 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 1, 2014 7:39 am)

 

September 1, 2014 7:37 am  #44


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

I have to ask: I "hear" us using the term psychopathic-- a  lot, as a descriptor of behavior, as if we're saying "bratty", or "ill-mannered", or even, "callous.". 

I am curious as to what we mean when we use that word to describe the characters? Do we really believe this is pathology? Or are we using the term as slang? 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 1, 2014 7:38 am)

 

September 1, 2014 7:44 am  #45


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

@Raven: I think we are on the same page about Sherlock not being a dangerous person to good people. I was trying to defend him, that even if he thought like a killer (very good parallel to the FBI profiler!) he is not to be considered a psychopath - as response to your first post that said talking Moriarty into suicide would make him one. I agree 100 % with your last post, and my "morally grey" was not in regard to his thoughts but in regard to his actions (like torturing the cabbie to get information and *possibly* talking his nemesis into suicide).

 

September 1, 2014 7:49 am  #46


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

Liberty wrote:

The thing that bothered me about Sherlock when I was watching S2 was that he kept so much from John.  It wasn't even as if they instinctively understood each other and didn't need to talk.  John really didn't have a clue, not just about what was going on, but about what Sherlock was feeling, and by extension, who Sherlock was.   It started off being Sherlock's fault, but I think by S3 it's John's fault too, because he just doesn't want to know.     Maybe he prefers the darker, more dangerous, cold-hearted, psychopathic character that's in his imagination over the real man who cares so much he'll give his life for him, and he tries to cling to that view of Sherlock despite the evidence.  (But at the same time, thankfully, he does seem to recognise the good in Sherlock - the best and wisest man, the most human).  It's a little disturbing.   I think John is sometimes presented as being Sherlock's moral compass and he likes to believe himself such, but Sherlock is the more morally good. 

Apart from his lack of communication, I agree with all your examples, Zatoichi.  He's also the one who comforts Sarah in TBB, he's caring towards the house mistress after shouting at her in TRF, etc.  I think he's caring and un-psychopathic throughout.   Even if you look at his cases, it's not just about the challenge of finding the villain - it's about stopping other people being hurt. 

I do think there's a change in S3, but I agree that some of that (not all of it) is a natural extension of S2.  TRF shows just how far he will go to save people, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that he's so selfless in S3.  I think what struck me about S3 is that he should have come back as a hero, and yet people still see him as a sociopath (and he continues to try to create that image), including John, who should know better.  But doesn't want to know better.   It still bothers me that Sherlock doesn't seem to get any thanks for what he had to go through during the two years, and seems to spend the rest of S3 apologising for saving people's lives. 

Anyway, that was off topic too (sorry), but no, it doesn't make Sherlock psychopathic if he talks Moriarty into suicide, just clever.  His motivations are about saving people.  Claming that he's not a hero, that he's not an angel - all lies.   He's just prepared to use methods that other people wouldn't.
(Edit: sorry, I wrote this post before I saw your post above, Zatoichi)

Just adding: I think it's very fitting that Sherlock uses something that Moriarty used right back in the first episode (talking people into killing themselves).   Except Sherlock does it properly.  Moriarty (and the cabbie's) methods aren't very clever at all - just threatening violence to the person or their loved ones if they don't do what they're told.  How do you talk somebody into doing what you want, without threats?  You make them think it was their idea.  Which is what Sherlock does.

Just YES to all of this.. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 

September 1, 2014 7:50 am  #47


Re: Did Sherlock plan and orchestrate Moriarty's suicide?

Zatoichi wrote:

@Raven: I think we are on the same page about Sherlock not being a dangerous person to good people. I was trying to defend him, that even if he thought like a killer (very good parallel to the FBI profiler!) he is not to be considered a psychopath - as response to your first post that said talking Moriarty into suicide would make him one. I agree 100 % with your last post, and my "morally grey" was not in regard to his thoughts but in regard to his actions (like torturing the cabbie to get information and *possibly* talking his nemesis into suicide).

Oh, totally!!! :-) Sorry-- I was actually agreeing. 

 

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