Ughhhh, how on earth is John now a villain? Just because doesn't think every second on the welfare of Sherlock? He fail to see in a moment of big distress how ill is Sherlock in HLV, does it make him now a villain or a bad human being for ever? 

I think from S1 both put their life at take, not only Sherlock. And if Sherlock would have shared more info from what he wants to do, he would have got also more of John's help. When John had the info about the cabbie (not that Sherlock shared it!), acted as good as it get to protect him. In TGG he is ready to die to save him. So how is that that only Sherlock is saving John? 

I fail to see Sherlock as inhuman in S1 ans S2 and all of a sudden human in S3. Perhaps because i relate very much with his experience, but for me he is very human from the beggining. Not interested in social  connections, not getting them right, but that doesn't make someone inhuman. As well with John. Just because he gets in S3 through some s... times and is confused doesn't make it for me neither inhuman or villain. Anger is a very important feeling, needs chanelling, but actually is very important for the survival of the human beings (that is also way loads of war veterans have anger issues). Our society thinks it need erasure and that is a not a PC-feeling so must be repressed at all costs. Well, this is not the truth and also not good. People have to deal with anger and have to learn to channel it that it is not destructive. 

I cannot think of Sherlock S3 as a black and white cliche film. Neither of the main two characters is only white or only black. Sherlock makes as well some pretty stupid choices. He puts John in danger, is not that John rush by himself into every kind of danger and Sherlock come after him each time to rescue - at the same time John knows what kind of life he has following Sherlock in adventures and he chose to follow. None is innocent (apart from the TRF fall that is). John doesn't get in life threatening situations because is a stupid danger addict, but because he is the pressure point of Sherlock and all other see that very easy and use it for their purposes. 

I am actually thankful that the Sherlock we get is not a superbrain superhero but a flawed human being, who despite his genie still have loads to learn about life. Same goes with Watson. I don't want a sweet Watson outhere, who accepts everything Sherlock does, watching amazed what Sherlock does, being there just that Sherlock doesn't talk to himself all the time. To be human is more than being nice all the time and controll your feelings and do the right thing in the right moment. Because this is not the life and would have been very bad writting and very boring (like watching the serie Superman, really). 

For me the purpose doesn't excuse the means and one would always have to deal with the consequences of the way he did it. Sherlock faked suicide and the two years absence brings a lot of consequences also when he does it to protect John - a very very important lesson for him, being forgiven very lightly would have teach him nothing (i still think he should not have put John through this ordeal for two years, but i see it is just me and John who thinks that, LOL). The consequences cannot be erased all of a sudden (and this is actually good writing that we get to see them as unpleasend they are). The same goes for CAM death, actually John had the revolver, not Sherlock; he is the soldier, he could have took care for himself if he believed that this death would protect him, Mary and baby. But he doesn't think of it, he doesn't request from Sherlock this sacrifice either. In my eyes killing CAM was a big mistake from Sherlock, a very big emotional mistake who puts also emotional pressure on John because it was done to protect his family - do not forget that as much as John is a big mouth to threaten, he kills only once. For Sherlock and not for himself, and before he does it he tryes to call Lestrade and he kills only in the last moment. We will see in S4 what kind of impact CAM killing will have on their relationship and how it will change Sherlock.

 

My personal opinion is that a lot of fans had John on a pedestal after S1 and S2.  I can see where S3 would be quite a shock to them.

SusiGo wrote:

You may be right. But I refuse to see him as a inherently violent, irredeemably damaged man who would be able to hurt his own child. 

Agreed.  %100

I really have a hard time picturing what a scenario like this could lead to, provide to the show, and where the connection to canon would remain. I have trouble enough picturing it with little Watson family, but additionally even more serious mental health problems for John to deal with? Hm...

@mattlocked, that's just my goofing around with the baby name and Sherlock being s girls name...

Liberty wrote:

What reassures me is that it isn't real life, and I don't think the the writers will choose to take it that way.  

I know the writers won't take it that way! No doubt in my mind about that. That's why I'm so eager for series 4 as I suspect that it will be John's turn for a redemption arc, that it will be his series.

Mary

Just one thought - I am convinced that Mark and Steven always have Canon in mind even when they deviate from it as far as in HLV. They have called this "a show about a detective", not "a show about mentally damaged men in a downward spiral towards unrestricted violence". True, they have gone for a lot of angst in series 3 and most of all in HLV but they have always managed to surprise us.

Here is a quote from Ben Stephenson, the BBC drama controller: "Steven and Mark are ready to unleash the most shocking and surprising series of Sherlock yet. The only thing to expect is the unexpected ..."

Both men are flawed.  Both have made mistakes.  Only makes me love them all the more.

While in real life it´s not unusual for war veterans to become unstable and abusive, I don´t think John has it in himself to violently abuse his wife and child.

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

But John would never attack somebody weaker, not able to defend himself. He is inherently quite noble and has a solid set of morals (notice how even CAM pointed this to Mary). Just as you cannot hypnotise people into doing something they are strongly opposed to, because their subconscious will prevent them from doing such deed, I believe you cannot provoke John so that he will loose control and hit Mary or his little girl - such behaviour is so unthinkable for him that the mere thought of it would stop him.

The same goes for Sherlock - we can excuse him because if we look at his motivations we must realise he didn´t do any violent deed for his own sake. He killed CAM to save others, especially John and was fully prepared to pay for it dearly, so even if it was a drastic deed, it was not just a mindless unmotivated violent abuse. When he seized Mycroft, he wanted to intimidate him and to shoo him out of his flat the quickiest way possible - and Mycroft was none the worse for wear after he released him.

nakahara wrote:

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

You make a compelling argument, one that I wish I could wholeheartedly believe. But the scene in 221B before Sherlock collapses weakens it. In that scene, Sherlock and John are not evenly matched and John still threatens him with violence. That is the moment that John crossed the line for me, not the scenes in TEH.

Mary

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

You make a compelling argument, one that I wish I could wholeheartedly believe. But the scene in 221B before Sherlock collapses weakens it. In that scene, Sherlock and John are not evenly matched and John still threatens him with violence. That is the moment that John crossed the line for me, not the scenes in TEH.

Mary

 
I lean towards thinking John would not have actually hit Sherlock in this scene.  Once again, John is under extreme stress, about to explode, but the only thing he actually attacks is a chair.  I think his threat to Sherlock was just about letting the anger out.