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August 7, 2014 7:59 pm  #61


Re: Violence at the reunion

Ughhhh, how on earth is John now a villain? Just because doesn't think every second on the welfare of Sherlock? He fail to see in a moment of big distress how ill is Sherlock in HLV, does it make him now a villain or a bad human being for ever? 

I think from S1 both put their life at take, not only Sherlock. And if Sherlock would have shared more info from what he wants to do, he would have got also more of John's help. When John had the info about the cabbie (not that Sherlock shared it!), acted as good as it get to protect him. In TGG he is ready to die to save him. So how is that that only Sherlock is saving John? 

I fail to see Sherlock as inhuman in S1 ans S2 and all of a sudden human in S3. Perhaps because i relate very much with his experience, but for me he is very human from the beggining. Not interested in social  connections, not getting them right, but that doesn't make someone inhuman. As well with John. Just because he gets in S3 through some s... times and is confused doesn't make it for me neither inhuman or villain. Anger is a very important feeling, needs chanelling, but actually is very important for the survival of the human beings (that is also way loads of war veterans have anger issues). Our society thinks it need erasure and that is a not a PC-feeling so must be repressed at all costs. Well, this is not the truth and also not good. People have to deal with anger and have to learn to channel it that it is not destructive. 

I cannot think of Sherlock S3 as a black and white cliche film. Neither of the main two characters is only white or only black. Sherlock makes as well some pretty stupid choices. He puts John in danger, is not that John rush by himself into every kind of danger and Sherlock come after him each time to rescue - at the same time John knows what kind of life he has following Sherlock in adventures and he chose to follow. None is innocent (apart from the TRF fall that is). John doesn't get in life threatening situations because is a stupid danger addict, but because he is the pressure point of Sherlock and all other see that very easy and use it for their purposes. 

I am actually thankful that the Sherlock we get is not a superbrain superhero but a flawed human being, who despite his genie still have loads to learn about life. Same goes with Watson. I don't want a sweet Watson outhere, who accepts everything Sherlock does, watching amazed what Sherlock does, being there just that Sherlock doesn't talk to himself all the time. To be human is more than being nice all the time and controll your feelings and do the right thing in the right moment. Because this is not the life and would have been very bad writting and very boring (like watching the serie Superman, really). 

For me the purpose doesn't excuse the means and one would always have to deal with the consequences of the way he did it. Sherlock faked suicide and the two years absence brings a lot of consequences also when he does it to protect John - a very very important lesson for him, being forgiven very lightly would have teach him nothing (i still think he should not have put John through this ordeal for two years, but i see it is just me and John who thinks that, LOL). The consequences cannot be erased all of a sudden (and this is actually good writing that we get to see them as unpleasend they are). The same goes for CAM death, actually John had the revolver, not Sherlock; he is the soldier, he could have took care for himself if he believed that this death would protect him, Mary and baby. But he doesn't think of it, he doesn't request from Sherlock this sacrifice either. In my eyes killing CAM was a big mistake from Sherlock, a very big emotional mistake who puts also emotional pressure on John because it was done to protect his family - do not forget that as much as John is a big mouth to threaten, he kills only once. For Sherlock and not for himself, and before he does it he tryes to call Lestrade and he kills only in the last moment. We will see in S4 what kind of impact CAM killing will have on their relationship and how it will change Sherlock.

 

 

August 7, 2014 8:04 pm  #62


Re: Violence at the reunion

Very lovely written, lovely. 


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 7, 2014 8:26 pm  #63


Re: Violence at the reunion

My personal opinion is that a lot of fans had John on a pedestal after S1 and S2.  I can see where S3 would be quite a shock to them.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 7, 2014 8:30 pm  #64


Re: Violence at the reunion

You may be right. But I refuse to see him as a inherently violent, irredeemably damaged man who would be able to hurt his own child. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 7, 2014 8:41 pm  #65


Re: Violence at the reunion

SusiGo wrote:

You may be right. But I refuse to see him as a inherently violent, irredeemably damaged man who would be able to hurt his own child. 

Agreed.  %100


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 7, 2014 8:54 pm  #66


Re: Violence at the reunion

Never said he was irredeemable, just that that's where his current trajectory could lead. I'm still holding out hope for him. There is potential for his life to take two paths at this point and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting and hoping to see him take the right one.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

August 7, 2014 9:01 pm  #67


Re: Violence at the reunion

I really have a hard time picturing what a scenario like this could lead to, provide to the show, and where the connection to canon would remain. I have trouble enough picturing it with little Watson family, but additionally even more serious mental health problems for John to deal with? Hm...

@mattlocked, that's just my goofing around with the baby name and Sherlock being s girls name...


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

August 7, 2014 9:32 pm  #68


Re: Violence at the reunion

Well ... (I don't know anything about the baby, or I'm trying not to.  I should really just catch up.  I'm planning to over the next couple of weeks, but I'm reluctant to reach the point where I've watched all the available episodes) ... having a baby is a dangerous time for domestic violence.  I don't think the writers will go down that route (of John harming the baby), but it's not a wild leap to think that somebody who behaves as John does in those scenes might be more likely to lose control with a baby than your average person.  I can see where you're coming from, Mary.  What reassures me is that it isn't real life, and I don't think the the writers will choose to take it that way.  It doesn't fit with the story, and would make the character completely unacceptable.   I feel safe that it won't happen (but not because it wouldn't happen in real life). 

Does anyone think John shows remorse? I like to think he feels it, but I don't know.   Even by the end, it's all about him forgiving Sherlock, rather than the other way around.   It feels like the potential is there for it to happen again ... no repercussions, acceptance from Sherlock (and even Mary?), a kind of vibe that John is actually in the right and justified and Sherlock is the one who needs to apologise. 

I think the only good thing John did there was walking out before he did any more damage. 

     Thread Starter
 

August 7, 2014 11:05 pm  #69


Re: Violence at the reunion

Liberty wrote:

What reassures me is that it isn't real life, and I don't think the the writers will choose to take it that way.  

I know the writers won't take it that way! No doubt in my mind about that. That's why I'm so eager for series 4 as I suspect that it will be John's turn for a redemption arc, that it will be his series.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

August 8, 2014 5:59 am  #70


Re: Violence at the reunion

I thought that might happen during Series 3, but from what you're all saying, it isn't.  In fact, I think I was expecting it to happen during TEH!  In real life, I'd find it difficult to look at John in the same way again, and that's how it still feels watching the series.  It's going to take quite a lot to convince me.   But you're right, there has to be some change in the relationship for Series 4, and John can't keep being headed towards being the bad guy. 

     Thread Starter
 

August 8, 2014 7:23 am  #71


Re: Violence at the reunion

Just one thought - I am convinced that Mark and Steven always have Canon in mind even when they deviate from it as far as in HLV. They have called this "a show about a detective", not "a show about mentally damaged men in a downward spiral towards unrestricted violence". True, they have gone for a lot of angst in series 3 and most of all in HLV but they have always managed to surprise us.

Here is a quote from Ben Stephenson, the BBC drama controller: "Steven and Mark are ready to unleash the most shocking and surprising series of Sherlock yet. The only thing to expect is the unexpected ..."


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 8, 2014 8:11 am  #72


Re: Violence at the reunion

I feel very strange about how you people put the problem here.

So, we have a person who once loose his temper and beat his friend ( i won't count the den scene because that was no gratuitous violence, i also won't count damaging a chair) vs one person who kills an unarmed person in the name of friendship, or love, or whatever - it doesn't change the fact (and nobody seems to have a problem about how this person reacts with barely keeped anger and violence toward his brother). And everybody now see only one as a bad persons predicting he is able to do violence toward a child and having no chance of redemption, while the other is the saviour knight, sweet and perfect.

Just because one is the main character it doesn't make it worst what he become from the others and better what he makes.

I am not sure i like this perspective of forgiving very easily and excuse whatever Sherlock does and extrapolate to the extremes whatever the other does to him. 

Well, wrong place for me i suppose. 

 

August 8, 2014 10:13 am  #73


Re: Violence at the reunion

Both men are flawed.  Both have made mistakes.  Only makes me love them all the more.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 8, 2014 12:56 pm  #74


Re: Violence at the reunion

A lovely light wrote:

( i won't count the den scene because that was no gratuitous violence,

To me, that scene is worse than the one in TEH!

Sherlock is swaying on his feet and is  frail and unwell (nice job on the subtle makeup, with the clammy skin and undereye circles). He's gone cold turkey on his morphine. He's in obvious pain and very fragile. And John threatens to deck him?!

But anyway, my initial point was not about where the character of John is going, but rather how and why my feelings towards him have changed if he were viewed as a real flesh and blood person. That opinion has nothing to do with where I think the character will be taken in series 4.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

August 8, 2014 12:59 pm  #75


Re: Violence at the reunion

While in real life it´s not unusual for war veterans to become unstable and abusive, I don´t think John has it in himself to violently abuse his wife and child.

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

But John would never attack somebody weaker, not able to defend himself. He is inherently quite noble and has a solid set of morals (notice how even CAM pointed this to Mary). Just as you cannot hypnotise people into doing something they are strongly opposed to, because their subconscious will prevent them from doing such deed, I believe you cannot provoke John so that he will loose control and hit Mary or his little girl - such behaviour is so unthinkable for him that the mere thought of it would stop him.

The same goes for Sherlock - we can excuse him because if we look at his motivations we must realise he didn´t do any violent deed for his own sake. He killed CAM to save others, especially John and was fully prepared to pay for it dearly, so even if it was a drastic deed, it was not just a mindless unmotivated violent abuse. When he seized Mycroft, he wanted to intimidate him and to shoo him out of his flat the quickiest way possible - and Mycroft was none the worse for wear after he released him.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

August 8, 2014 1:13 pm  #76


Re: Violence at the reunion

A lovely light wrote:

I feel very strange about how you people put the problem here.

So, we have a person who once loose his temper and beat his friend ( i won't count the den scene because that was no gratuitous violence, i also won't count damaging a chair) vs one person who kills an unarmed person in the name of friendship, or love, or whatever - it doesn't change the fact (and nobody seems to have a problem about how this person reacts with barely keeped anger and violence toward his brother). And everybody now see only one as a bad persons predicting he is able to do violence toward a child and having no chance of redemption, while the other is the saviour knight, sweet and perfect.

If you want to put it like that - we also have another person who killed someone in the name of friendship, love, or whatever, a person he had known for barely 24 hours. A person who did not have a gun pointed a someone at this moment (just like Magnussen). 

And please, please, please, do not let us over-interpret Sherlock's reaction to Mycroft who is coming for help but in his usual intrusive and superior way. He provokes Sherlock who is in a very unstable condition and coming down from a drug high.
I love the way the relationship between the brothers is told and the scenes between Benedict and Mark are real jewels. They are depths and dark corners we have not seen but I think we can basically agree that they deeply care for each other. And I think one day we shall see how much Sherlock cares for Mycroft as well. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 8, 2014 2:31 pm  #77


Re: Violence at the reunion

nakahara wrote:

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

You make a compelling argument, one that I wish I could wholeheartedly believe. But the scene in 221B before Sherlock collapses weakens it. In that scene, Sherlock and John are not evenly matched and John still threatens him with violence. That is the moment that John crossed the line for me, not the scenes in TEH.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

August 8, 2014 2:37 pm  #78


Re: Violence at the reunion

SusiGo wrote:

We also have another person who killed someone in the name of friendship, love, or whatever, a person he had known for barely 24 hours. A person who did not have a gun pointed a someone at this moment (just like Magnussen). 

I meant to stay out of this thread for the time being because it keeps turning in circles at the moment, but I just have to give you a big thumbs up for pointing that out, Susi.

Exactly. The only person endangering Sherlock's life at that moment in ASIP was Sherlock himself, and if you look at it from a high moral horse, so to speak, it was strange to let a poor unarmed taxi driver pay for it. No less strange than shooting a poor unarmed media tycoon in the head just to make his brain stop working. If you accept a moral justification for that gunshot in ASIP, you have to extend that same generosity to the one in HLV. Because just like the poor unarmed taxi driver also happened to be a mentally deranged serial killer and therefore deserved to die anyway, the poor unarmed media tycoon is probably directly responsible for at least four deaths, too (just think of poor Lord Smallwood), so the same judgement should apply to him. Period.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

August 8, 2014 2:48 pm  #79


Re: Violence at the reunion

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

You make a compelling argument, one that I wish I could wholeheartedly believe. But the scene in 221B before Sherlock collapses weakens it. In that scene, Sherlock and John are not evenly matched and John still threatens him with violence. That is the moment that John crossed the line for me, not the scenes in TEH.

Mary

 
I lean towards thinking John would not have actually hit Sherlock in this scene.  Once again, John is under extreme stress, about to explode, but the only thing he actually attacks is a chair.  I think his threat to Sherlock was just about letting the anger out.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 8, 2014 3:11 pm  #80


Re: Violence at the reunion

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

When John attacked Sherlock, he set on a man much taller, younger and probably even stronger than him, very well trained in martial arts and able-bodied. If Sherlock decided to retaliate he could´ve kicked John´s ass to the next Friday and they both knew that.

You make a compelling argument, one that I wish I could wholeheartedly believe. But the scene in 221B before Sherlock collapses weakens it. In that scene, Sherlock and John are not evenly matched and John still threatens him with violence. That is the moment that John crossed the line for me, not the scenes in TEH.

He does? What do you mean?

Oh, you've meant the "shut up or you will need more morphine" thing? I never understood it as a real threat. And as Sherlock does not shut up, I would like to believe that he did not understand it as a serious threat either.

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 8, 2014 3:21 pm)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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