Liberty wrote:

I agree about the violence being unrealistic - which is good, in a way.  I don't really want to see the real thing.  (For me, getting hit in the face meant only being able to eat liquids until the bones healed - facial bones are fragile).  But I accept that in the show, this is comedy violence. 

It's interesting that the writers suspected that Watson lied about being violent to Holmes - that he beat him up and didn't speak to him for a while, but instead wrote that he fainted.  They have him as unreliable narrator in the Milverton story as well, where they believe that Holmes killed Milverton, but that Watson covered up for him when writing the story.    I don't know if there's any more, but it's something that comes from having Holmes seen always through Watson's eyes, and not just that, through Watson's writing - what he chooses to reveal to the public (or embellish).  They've chosen to read between the lines and see what Watson is hiding ... and as TV Sherlock stories are not told by John, we get to see what actually happened instead.  However, it's "true" that Watson covered up his violence towards Holmes, it's possible that he felt ashamed of it. 

Oh, dear-- you've given me a plot bunny. 

But you make an interesting point-- remember how in HLV John gets all twitchy when Sherlock calls him out on his "addiction" to violence and adrenaline? John doesn't like people to point out that he's NOT as normal as he likes to think himself. ;-)

SusiGo wrote:

As I said before, I really do not like to take sides with one of them. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, both have been hurt and have hurt each other. But there is a difference between series 1 and 2 on the one hand and series 3 on the other. John is no masochist. He is not suffering from Sherlock's behavious in the first two series. He can cope with his eccentricities and sees him for what he is and still chooses to be his friend. 
Series 3, however, is different. And for me it is important to keep in mind that Moriarty is at the root of everything - Sherlock's fake suicide, John's heartbreak over this, Sherlock being alone and on the run and tortured, the two-year separation, the (ultimately distastrous) marriage with Mary. We cannot understand Sherlock and John's relationship in series 3 without remembering who was the cause for all that happened.  

Great points, SusiGo! It's all too easy to forget that Moriarty is the one to blame for Sherlock's Fall, and John's sorrow, and his marrying ..well.. Mary. 

nakahara wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

So we have the inexusable behaviour of letting John go through hell for two years. Then he is so caught up in his own bubble that he can't fathom why John wouldn't be happy to see him. Even though he lacks the social skills to understand that by himself, Mycroft do tell him this. And Sherlock dismisses it - because everything revolves around him. 

And then, seeing John's reactions, he starts feeling guilty. And feeling guilty is not a good feeling, so Sherlock wants to get rid of it. Getting John's forgivess will help him get rid of it. So he stages the worst kind of emotional blackmail to a man who has several times already experienced the trauma of nearly dying. Because getting rid of his own guilt and restore emotional equlibrum is for Sherlock much more important than the trauma he puts John through.

I think he should consider himself lucky getting away with a bloody nose and bruised lip.

In the original story: Moriarty´s network was already unveiled and was gradually being destroyed by the police at the moment of Sherlock´s duel with Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls. Sherlock´s decision to fake his death was spontaneous after he defeated Moriarty - it was something of a whim. Sherlock was living a happy life incognito, visiting various countries and having exciting adventures. All that time, his reputation as the greatest detective and moral individual was intact and even Lestrade, who once abhored him, revered him as a god in his absence. Sherlock only decided to return when he heard about an interesting case that just took place in London. And yet John, who was left in belief of Sherlock´s death for three long years, forgave Sherlock completely, not holding him responsible for the unusual events and the malevolence of Moriarty´s gang that forced him into such behaviour in the first place. As a true friend should.

In the BBC Version: The Moriarty´s gang is in full power at the time Sherlock fakes his death. One of M´s people infiltrated Scotland Yard and is shadowing Lestrade, other person entered Sherlock´s own house under the guise of being the workman and has Mrs. Hudson in his aim. Four murderers moved in as Sherlock´s closest neighbours. There can be many more and nobody can be sure who they are or what would they do. In the process of fighting Moriarty, Sherlock´s reputation collapsed. Not only was he tarnished by the media as an absolute monster, but he was being accussed of severe crimes as well and was forced to be on the run or to get arrested. He whose biggest pride is to be a great detective lost this reputation too and was being introduced as a fraud to the public. After he flees, he must constantly fight with the members of Moriarty´s gang, being captured and severely tortured in Serbia. His brother knows where Sherlock is and how he suffers, but he only bothers to get Sherlock out of the danger when he needs him in London. Sure, being in such situation, Sherlock certainly had time to send John postcards with greetings, letting him know that he lives. 

Yet it is him who is an arse? Is it not actually John who feels that everything revolves around him?

Sherlock tells him that a parliament (which at that evening will be full of people, politicians and employees alike) will be destroyed and asks for John´s help and what does John do? He buttheads Sherlock viciously. Who cares about parliamentary employees and passers-by on the street below being killed? They are unimportant next to John´s hurt feelings. Because everything revolves around John. Let´s even injure Sherlock so that he will be delayed in his rescue attempt while taking care of his battered face. Sherlock´s protection of people from the aftereffect of madman´s orders (who just randomly killed dozens of innocents in S1, especially in The Great Game, just to make a point and whose supporters could kill Sherlock´s friends anytime, if they knew he was alive) also doesn´t count. John´s hurt feelings are above such lowly and unimportant things as human lives. 

In the Granada adaptation: John tags along Sherlock when they investigate the case and actively helps to catch Moran, disabling him with a punch when Sebastian Moran overpowers his friend in a fight. He proved himself as a invaluable companion and support to Sherlock.

In the BBC Version: John tags along Sherlock when they investigate the case because when he is left at home, bored, he soon starts to sprain people for fun and to jump at them wielding a tire-lever. But the moment when things go awry, he starts accusing Sherlock as if it was his fault somehow that all of this happened and even then he does not contribute one iota to stopping the bomb, just whines ineptly. 

Sherlock´s scaring John off that they would be blown to the air was not an emotional blackmail. It was a shock therapy, a kick-to-the-pants, so that John finally pulls his head out of his ass and finally let go of his petty vengeance in which he walloved throughout the whole episode. And it works! John suddenly sees what is important and he forgives Sherlock, because at the last moment of his life, he realises what a stupid thing it is to feel insulted over things that were not in Sherlock´s power to prevent.

Seriously considering purchasing a nice ring, Nakahara! 

You articulated everything I really wanted to say, about 999% better than I could have. 
 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

But you make an interesting point-- remember how in HLV John gets all twitchy when Sherlock calls him out on his "addiction" to violence and adrenaline? John doesn't like people to point out that he's NOT as normal as he likes to think himself. ;-)

Although he seems to accept it right at the beginning (in ASIP). (But I agree - he makes a conscious effort to suppress it after TRF - maybe it's the trauma of that that makes him feel more uncomfortable about his addiction?  He seems to have a need to blame Sherlock for it, which he didn't at the beginning.  So his anger over TRF is maybe partly "look what you made me become" as well, even though he knows it's not true).  Yes, it's interesting that we're seeing John "exposed" in a way that he never was in the books.

I want to chip in for this scene again. As I've written a couple of times, TEH is one of my favorite episodes (interestingly enough, my other favorite episode - THoB - was also written by Mark Gatiss). And I love this scene. 

Now, I do not love the scene for the reasons you might think. I do not love it because "Haha, finally Sherlock gets what he deserves!". I will admit that the first and maybe second time I watched it, it had an element of that. The scene was cool and funny, and Sherlock was finally called out for his oblivious nature to human emotions.

However, I am well passed that now and can easily feel sorry for Sherlock in this scene. And I still love it. And there is one reason for that: Martin Freeman.

Ben and his Sherlock is usually such a charismatic presence that he dominates every scene he is in. But this scene, in it's entiretity, belongs to Martin. I will say this is the finest acting I've seen from him in the entire show. I am in awe everytime I rewatch it. First he's in such a great shock that he's shaking when trying to get up, then it's pure vulnerable pain in a face more open than John has ever been, to simmering anger with the dangerous non-humourus smile - and all of that without hardly moving at all. 

His low growl of "I have all night", his (according to Moftiss on the commentary) "Oliver Hardy" and "silent movie acting" in the last takeaway place... I've never seen Martin deliver work as fine as this. So much emotions, such depth and such variety of it, from a character that is usually so supressed and lowkey. The entire scene is a highlight of the show, acting-wise.

And THAT is why I still love this scene. 

Last edited by Vhanja (June 15, 2015 9:11 pm)

This is how Sherlock would really look if he was tortured in a dungeon for weeks and then viciosuly headbutted on top of that:



Too bad Benedict didn´t wear similar make-up during TEH. If his Sherlock looked like this through the entire length of an episode, I´m curious if the reactions would still be: "Sherlock deserved punishment" or "Sherlock was finally taught a lesson"....

nakahara wrote:

This is how Sherlock would really look if he was tortured in a dungeon for weeks and then viciosuly headbutted on top of that:



Too bad Benedict didn´t wear similar make-up during TEH. If his Sherlock looked like this through the entire length of an episode, I´m curious if the reactions would still be: "Sherlock deserved punishment" or "Sherlock was finally taught a lesson"....

I think that there will always be folks who think that Sherlock hasn't been punished enough. 

besleybean wrote:

I don't understand that.
I never thought Sherlock did need punishing...I think John understands this now.
Sherlock was prepared to serve a life sentence for John.

Actually, Sherlock got a death sentence for John. 

It's a weird thing about horrible things happening to Sherlock-- he gets shot by mary and nearly dies, but manages (barely to survive) so it's over, that's okay. John beats the heck out him, but-- that's okay, it's over now. He was tortured in Serbia, but that's over with-- just fine. 

John's suffering over TRF still hasn't ended, even though Sherlock's back and has saved his life over and over again since. And I suspect the hand-wringing will never stop. 

Maybe it's because we feel sorrier for those who suffer heavy emotional pain than  the physical? Maybe people still feel that Sherlock deserves every kick and punch and gunshot and death sentence he receives? 

Why is Sherlock's trauma (all of it-- and there's a lot of it) less compelling-- why is there less sympathy for him than there is for John?  I think it's that Sherlock's hurts are treated as comedy on the show, and John's Post TRF pain is treated as tragedy and drama. 

I think the show beautifully portrays both Sherlock's physical and emotional traumas.
I just hope his team of carers keep him well.
I'm never entirely happy at John'r reactions to Sherlock, but I think they are true to his character.