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June 14, 2014 4:31 pm  #161


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

I don't think of it as a threesome so much as a triangle, with the John being the focal point. John loves Sherlock and Mary; Mary and Sherlock love John. There is no love lost between Mary and Sherlock. One of the points of Mary, I believe, is to show us the difference between Sherlock's love for John and Mary's love for John -- why his is real and hers is not. Mary is all about doing what it takes to possess John, even if that means murdering his best friend, lying, manipulating, and murdering Magnussen. Sherlock is all about doing what is best for John and protecting him from harm, even if that means that he loses John and sacrifices his own interests in the process. Quite a distinction. Now, maybe I'm a romantic, but which of these two partners should our beloved John Watson end up with? 


Don’t snivel, Mrs. Hudson. It will do nothing to impede the flight of a bullet. What a tender world that would be.
 

June 14, 2014 4:46 pm  #162


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Well we know who is going to outlive the other...
I'm  not so certain Mary's love for John is not real.


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June 14, 2014 4:58 pm  #163


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Well, yes, I misspoke. I shouldn't say it's not real. It's just not admirable. 
 


Don’t snivel, Mrs. Hudson. It will do nothing to impede the flight of a bullet. What a tender world that would be.
 

June 14, 2014 5:08 pm  #164


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

tenderworld wrote:

Well, yes, I misspoke. I shouldn't say it's not real. It's just not admirable. 
 

 
This. It's real, no doubt. But from what we've seen so far it dares not speak the truth nor sacrificing luck, comfort or own happiness.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

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June 14, 2014 5:15 pm  #165


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

There is something very frightening and sinister about Mary. John is not safe with her, but I don't see how the relationship can end without her dying, which seems so cliche. I know it's canon, but still. I want something more clever. 


Don’t snivel, Mrs. Hudson. It will do nothing to impede the flight of a bullet. What a tender world that would be.
 

June 19, 2014 8:40 pm  #166


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

This was certainly the weirdest but also most enjoyable wedding party I have ever seen. Loved Sherlock's best man speech, what a great performance by Benedict. However, I cringed a bit when he played the waltz for John and Mary, that scene was just a tad too sugary for my taste. But thankfully it was only a brief moment, and I was relieved to see him standing a bit forlorn among the dancers afterwards and finally leaving the wedding early. I know many found this part very sad but to me it was perfectly convincing and much more "in character" than if he had stayed at the party all night long. It also reminded me of all the weddings, anniversaries and similar events that I have left early, feeling slightly out of place after a few hours of socialising. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I love to go out and party, preferably with good friends, but I find those "formal" family events like weddings often a bit tiring. I'm supposed to talk to people who I only see once a year or even less often and with whom I don't have much in common so I really don't know what to talk about. I usually end up just sitting there, trying desperately not to look bored, counting the hours until I can go home. Therefore I can totally relate to Sherlock leaving the weding after his job is done.


O, learn to read what silent love hath writ:
To hear with eyes belongs to love’s fine wit.
(Shakespeare, Sonnet 23) 
 

June 19, 2014 8:48 pm  #167


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

I see what you mean and I often feel the same at weddings and such. But to me it didn't seem at all as if he wanted to leave at first. So it is "in character", but also very sad.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

June 19, 2014 8:52 pm  #168


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

It is interesting how different people see this episode resp. the wedding itself. For me the whole episode has a very sad touch. It speaks of loss and change and Sherlock bringing himself to do things he would never have done for anyone but John. 
If he had just left at the end it would have been alright. But we get the scene on the dancefloor before. Looking at his face I see someone who is broken. This is more than a feeling of not belonging, of being relieved to have fulfilled his task and being able to go home. 
And if you think of the beginning of HLV this becomes even clearer. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 19, 2014 9:02 pm  #169


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Mattlocked wrote:

I see what you mean and I often feel the same at weddings and such. But to me it didn't seem at all as if he wanted to leave at first. So it is "in character", but also very sad.

I agree there is a moment of sadness when he realises that he does not "belong there"... I know that moment when all of a sudden that feeling of isolation and alienation hits you even though one moment before you felt totally included and part of the crowd. Of course it is sad, but everything else would have been so unlikely and therefore less convincing to me.
 


O, learn to read what silent love hath writ:
To hear with eyes belongs to love’s fine wit.
(Shakespeare, Sonnet 23) 
 

June 19, 2014 9:14 pm  #170


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Right. I agree.
But ... Susi explained it quite well.
I think it wouldn't have felt so sad in the end if he'd stayed "in character" all the time. But he did change. (Or maybe he didn't, he only showed more of what has been there all the time.)  And in the end it felt like ....hm.... a slap in the face. "Hey, you did some nice things. But you are Sherlock. You don't belong in here!"  Something like that.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

June 19, 2014 9:14 pm  #171


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

I think nobody here argues that this sadness is somehow wrong or out of character - quite on the contrary, I believe. It is sad and heartbreaking, and at the same time it's wonderful to see this side of Sherlock we haven't really seen before, at least not to that extent. We all know that something like a wedding is not really his area, and like Susi already said: Sherlock did this for John and I'm sure there is no other person on this planet Sherlock would do something like this for. Everything about the wedding is Sherlock's declaration of love for John.
So Sherlock leaving the wedding early after being all alone on the dance floor doesn't really come all that unexpected and is in character - and still it's one of the saddest things I've ever seen on tv. But that's alright, because it hurts so good.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 19, 2014 9:18 pm  #172


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Well said, Solar. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 19, 2014 9:29 pm  #173


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 27, 2014 10:44 pm  #174


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

SusiGo wrote:

The floral arrangements at the wedding contain green carnations among other flowers. While I read that green carnations have been quite popular for about ten years there is another assocation: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Carnation

Oh, thanks for pointing this out, I suck at flowers language so I had obviously missed this! Very interesting.

I also found this, something that surely can't have escaped Moftiss: http://www.amazon.fr/The-Case-Of-Green-Carnation-ebook/dp/B00FCIONP8

As for the wedding, I know this will sound like a stupid detail, but the way Mary and John get out of the chapel (church?) has always buggered me. Maybe it's just a cultural thing, but they almost rush out. In France, the newly weds step out of the church/town hall very slowly, that's why it surprised me.

Also, many things broke my heart in this episode (paradoxically, many things made me burst out laughing) but one of them is the way Mycroft echoes Mrs Hudson and uses exactly the same words she used with Sherlock while telling him about her former best friend: "It's the end of an era..."

The whole Mycroft scene leaves me perplexed, actually. Mycroft has kept a weary eye on John during Sherlock's absence. Surely, when Mary appeared in the landscape, there's no doubt he's done his research. I'm pretty sure he knew something about her (just as Sherlock probably did as well, way before HLV)

Now, if Sherlock asked him to come (I'm obsessed with the Holmes bros' relationship, and as much as I'd love to think Sherlock wanted Mycroft to come to the wedding just for the sake of getting some "support/comfort" from him, I think there is probably something more about his insistance...), I just can't buy that Mycroft simply declined and worse, totally forgot about it.

I mean, we know there's nothing Mycroft wouldn't do for Sherlock and I'm sure that deep inside, he loves it when Sherlock "needs" him. He doesn't seem very much busy (he's working out, it's not like he was in the middle of a very important meeting with the Japan's ambassador or whatever). I like to think he's only pretending he has forgotten and that he hasn't come because of Mary.

I'm also pretty sure he knows she is the one who shot Sherlock. He is very protective of his brother, so even if Sherlock didn't tell him who shot him, he would haved found out (his brains + secret network) and I imagine that if Mary isn't in jail, it's only because Sherlock asked Mycroft not to do anything about her (because it would have hurted John). We don't see any interaction between Mary and Mycroft at Christmas, it would have been interesting.

And then, there are all those things that have already been said, like the wedding seemed to be between Sherlock and John. (to be honest; I think the only "sweet" moment between John and Mary is when they dance, John seems really in love, especially when he bends to kiss her, and the way he looks at her)

As for the "drama queen" scene, it annoyed me when I saw it for the first time, but I understood it the second time. Like you, I think John was just very stressed about Sholto (losing a friend, like a TRF's "pastiche") and maybe "insulting" Sherlock was also a way to make him react. I don't know. I know it's not a really nice way to act, but when people are losing faith in themselves/thinking they aren't able to do a thing etc, I sometimes "insult" their pride, say something bad about them just to make them react and do everything they can to succeed just to prove me wrong.

I thought that's what John was trying to do too. Sherlock has his pride, he couldn't care less what people think about it when it's something like Donovan calling him a freak, or people assuming he and John are a couple, but he doesn't like it when people have doubts about his "puzzle solver" competences.

And it works, as soon as he feels insulted by John, he solves the case.
 


************************
Just like old times...


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July 4, 2014 6:37 pm  #175


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

SusiGo wrote:

I can only agree. For me it is a love story between Sherlock and John taking place during a wedding at which a crime is solved. But - and this is the sad thing - it is mainly unrequited love on Sherlock's side, at least most of the time (if we exclude the stag night). 
All the things you expect to see - the proposal, the declaration of love, doing all you can think of to make the other person happy - is between Sherlock and John. 
 

Sherlock really did  make it his wedding, didn't he? Don't forget the scene when he tried to step into the wedding pictures...and the fact that we see him pledging him love, and John hugging him, not as much affection between John and Mary. Or if there is, it isn't central.

It really did make me think Mary could go along with one of those three-person "arrangements."

There's a lot of fanfic about the knee grab leading to a "first time" but I could see that applying to their practice dancing also.

Although there were times (the planning scene) when it was Sherlock and Mary doing the work, and John the least involved.


 

 

July 10, 2014 11:31 am  #176


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

SolarSystem wrote:

I think nobody here argues that this sadness is somehow wrong or out of character - quite on the contrary, I believe. It is sad and heartbreaking, and at the same time it's wonderful to see this side of Sherlock we haven't really seen before, at least not to that extent. We all know that something like a wedding is not really his area, and like Susi already said: Sherlock did this for John and I'm sure there is no other person on this planet Sherlock would do something like this for. Everything about the wedding is Sherlock's declaration of love for John.
So Sherlock leaving the wedding early after being all alone on the dance floor doesn't really come all that unexpected and is in character - and still it's one of the saddest things I've ever seen on tv. But that's alright, because it hurts so good.

Yeah, that's exactly it. And I can't actually explain WHY it hurts either. I mean, it's not as if any of us expected Sherlock to start grooving it up on the dance floor or leave with a pretty girl (or boy) on his arm. It's obvious that he would stand on his own, feel awkward, and leave on his own, but still....

I think maybe it's because he really felt part of something that day, and he'd actually enjoyed himself (although he wouldn't admit that). He'd also been practicing the dancing with Janine earlier so there was an indication that he expected to be dancing with her, in public, but then when he saw her with someone else and realised it wasn't going to happen after all and that his initial thoughts about weddings had been correct - that he didn't really belong at them.

It's basically the fact that everyone has someone to hang out with/talk to/dance with, except him. John has Mary, Molly has Tom, Janine has the geeky guy. Sherlock's all on his lonesome, as usual.
 


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April 10, 2015 10:13 pm  #177


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Just found this. Not sure if it has been mentioned:

http://sherlockedwatson.tumblr.com/post/116059569581/incurablylazydevil


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 10, 2015 10:22 pm  #178


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Wow, wow and wow again! 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 11, 2015 9:10 am  #179


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

This is scientific research at its best. Brilliant. And I especially love the remark that Sherlock was helping with the seating arrangements. So he is to blame. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 11, 2015 9:20 am  #180


Re: This wedding is an extremely strange one!

Does anyone know if that is the traditional English seating arrangements? I reckon they might be different in various countries.

I am tempted to say that this is just creative license from the crew to allow for simpler and more in-frame reactions between Sherlock and John. And they put Sherlock in the middle of the table so that he could easily jump over and walk around the rest of the guests throughout the second part of the series.

I guess it just proves again that the wedding is simply a prop, nothing more.


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