BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Magic and Desecration of 221B

Mattlocked · May 9, 2014 4:17 pm

Oh, right, we had this in the Sign Of Three thread:

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 4:47 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
Just found "A study in chairs". Don't know if it has been posted here before and didn't read it yet (no time), but I don't want it to get lost and I will read it later. If you want to give it a try right now?

http://foriamsincerity.tumblr.com/post/73247553430/a-study-in-chairs-the-symbolism-of-john-and-sherlock

Thank you. This is brilliant and heartbreaking, had not seen it before.

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 4:57 pm

Oh wow... does he really kick that smaller chair against Sherlock's...? Then the feeling I'm always having when I watch that scene isn't really just a feeling...

lil · May 9, 2014 5:40 pm

Yes some good thoughtful points here and I think there is some interesting symbolism going on with 221b.
In HLV it's almost all outside the flat..meeting Mary outside the door ..and then on the pavement..then by the end they are all inside celebrating but John and Sherlock go outside to the pavement.
In TSOT we get the scene where the whole of 221b seems to be covered in wedding paraphernalia....Sherlocks surrounded and adding to it...and then wierdly....Mary pushes Sherlock and John into leaving....and the last scene there ..Sherlock contemplates the empty chair.
In HLV all those horrible desecrations mentioned here...and John returns..but he has kind of betrayed Sherlock to Mycroft..and 221b is invaded by Anderson and his wife searching and everyone is angry and confrontational at him..
Poor Sherlock seems to collapse on his chair..wither up into his hoody hiding .
It's all so so sad...I really feel for him.

I too hope for some magic back in 221b in series 4...its a stunning and brilliant set that has hosted many unforgettable scenes.
But from the...Armageddon type situation they are building up to I doubt it.
Fingers crossed series five at least will mean a return to paradise in 221b.

Last edited by lil (May 9, 2014 5:41 pm)

Mattlocked · May 9, 2014 8:58 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Mattlocked wrote:
Just found "A study in chairs". Don't know if it has been posted here before and didn't read it yet (no time), but I don't want it to get lost and I will read it later. If you want to give it a try right now?

http://foriamsincerity.tumblr.com/post/73247553430/a-study-in-chairs-the-symbolism-of-john-and-sherlock
Thank you. This is brilliant and heartbreaking, had not seen it before.

I finally finished reading it and find it brilliant, too.
So far there are two points I don't quite understand:

"Sherlock assumes John won’t be able to forgive Mary for almost killing Sherlock, so he thinks that moving the chair to its place is relevant.

Quite sadly, this turns out not to be true."

Right. But only because Sherlock himself convinced John to forgive/stay with Mary...

"And we get a rare shot from the opposite angle than the usual - tables (or should I say chairs) have been turned. This is a silent way of telling us that nothing will ever be the same again - something important has changed and shifted."

Nothing will ever be the same again? It's not, at the moment. But never again? I don't believe that. Or maybe don't want to.

This is really heartbreaking:
"As we all know, this scene ends with Sherlock collapsing to John’s arms, his condition weakening and his heart in danger to fail. Sherlock even tells the ambulance crew that they might need to restart his heart. Then he literally falls out of his chair and is taken to a hospital.

And that is the last time see the chairs to make an appearance in season three. You’ll have to draw your own conclusions about that one."

Last edited by Mattlocked (May 9, 2014 9:02 pm)

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 9:07 pm

You are right but we do not see where John spends the time between the 221B scene and Christmas. And we do not know when exactly he decides upon this act (I think he is acting) with regard to Mary and John.

IMO This is pure speculation.

Yes, very, very sad. And I really hope to see them again in 221B in spite of everything that has happened.

tonnaree · May 9, 2014 9:07 pm

Speaking of 221b, am I the only one who desperately wants to see John's bedroom?

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 9:08 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
"And we get a rare shot from the opposite angle than the usual - tables (or should I say chairs) have been turned. This is a silent way of telling us that nothing will ever be the same again - something important has changed and shifted."

Nothing will ever be the same again? It's not, at the moment. But never again? I don't believe that. Or maybe don't want to.

I think the idea that "something important has changed and shifted" is correct, but the conclusion... is still open.
I would agree with you, Mattlocked, that at the moment it looks as if the tables/chairs have been turned. But that doesn't mean it will stay like this forever. The chairs can be turned once again. And I really, really hope they will.

Btw, I just remembered that with Sherlock, John and their clients it's not always been the way it was mentioned by John in HLV: in THoB John is sitting on the chair next to the table while Henry is sitting in John's chair. Don't know if this is in any way important, just thought I'd mention it.

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 9:11 pm

This is true. And what about the clients in ASiB? We see them from behind the chairs and the sofa is behind them. This is the perspective from which we see Mary in HLV if I am not mistaken. I would not attach too much meaning to that.

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 9:18 pm

Right, we do see them from that perspective indeed - and Sherlock is mostly walking to and fro and not sitting in his chair at all. Then again, they are no 'real' clients, are they...?
But I would say there is a general pattern with those chairs, but they don't stick to it a hundred percent.

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 9:21 pm

This is just an aside but I love the scene with Archie sitting in John's chair.

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 9:38 pm

Oh yes, I love Archie and I love that scene, it's hilarious.

But listen, this scene always makes me a bit sad for a moment, because it seems to me that Sherlock is not just 'lying' on his chair because he's tired or miffed or something like that - he could lie down on the sofa, coudn't he? Why on the chair, he has never done that before. It's almost as if he's deliberately staring at the void John's chair has left... practically at eye level.

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 9:44 pm

Yes. And the succession of scenes as a whole is brilliant if you think how often the mood changes. The confrontation between Sherlock and Mycroft/the missing chair - Sherlock and Janine and jealous John - Magnussen's outrageous behaviour and Sherlock's humiliation ...

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 10:20 pm

That's true, the mood changes - and at the same time there is constant tension.

SusiGo · May 9, 2014 10:25 pm

And the overall theme in all scenes in the invasion of 221B.

SolarSystem · May 9, 2014 10:37 pm

True. In S3 John and Sherlock are alone in 221B how often, twice...? In TEH they are alone when John comes to Sherlock after the bonfire, and then the stag night in TSoT, but apart from that? Ah, okay, when John asks Sherlock to be his best man...

Last edited by SolarSystem (May 9, 2014 10:38 pm)

tonnaree · May 10, 2014 3:02 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Oh yes, I love Archie and I love that scene, it's hilarious.

But listen, this scene always makes me a bit sad for a moment, because it seems to me that Sherlock is not just 'lying' on his chair because he's tired or miffed or something like that - he could lie down on the sofa, coudn't he? Why on the chair, he has never done that before. It's almost as if he's deliberately staring at the void John's chair has left... practically at eye level.

Yes. Until he gets up to stop Mycroft from going in his room he's absolutly pinning. You can see it in his eyes.,

PS. Archie fans. I have a great fic reccomendation I'm going to go post right now!

Last edited by tonnaree (May 10, 2014 3:03 am)

tykobrian · August 21, 2014 10:54 am

Here is a wonderful meta which explores idea that in BBC Sherlock 221B was especially designed in a way to symbolize Sherlock Holmes himself.

La Jolie · August 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Good thoughts, Susi and everyone. Of course we all agree on the magic of 221b. Whenever the show takes us there, it really is like coming home. Warm glow all around.

I don't agree however that Magnussen's visit in HLV is the first or only desecration that happens to it, although it is the worst. (But then, Magnussen is the worst villain we've seen in the show so far.) As a matter of fact there is some sort of intrusion (and therefore desecration) in practically every episode. Right from the outset it is made clear that the place is not an impregnable fortress, not a stronghold where Sherlock and John will always be safe, and not a wonderland either where trouble and sorrow will never follow them. (Which is, btw, completely consistent with ACD's canon, too.)

In ASIP, we have Lestrade and his pretend drugs bust, and the cabbie (although he stops just short of entering the flat itself).
In TBB, we have the weird sword fighting Tuareg or whatever he is (hot contender for least favourite scene, by the way).
In TGG, we have the explosion.
In ASIB, we have the CIA men, and (worse IMO) Irene
In TRF, we have Moriarty coming for tea. And installing a camera. (Which I personally find a terribly disturbing thought. And I'm not even a Johnlocker.) Plus Lestrade & Co. coming for the arrest.
In TEH, we have Sherlock's parents. (OK, not completely serious about that one.)
In TSOT, we have Mary. (Not necessarily evil Mary, but her presence really takes getting used to...)
In HLV, we have all the intrusions mentioned before in this thread.

So it's not sudden at all, but rather a slowly escalating pattern. It's worse than ever before in HLV but although it feels a lot like it most of the time, 221b has never been a safe haven.

SusiGo · August 27, 2014 3:14 pm

Yes, I agree that there is an escalation and you list the incidents very convincingly. Just one thought - for me the difference between HLV and all the other episodes is that here we have not a single scene showing the old magic atmosphere between Sherlock and John. In TEH we have the scene after Sherlock's parents have left, a first step of reconciliation, and the wonderful moments in the hallway at the end. In TSoT there is the best man scene in the kitchen and the stag night. But in HLV we get nothing of that, just Anderson doing his drug search, Magnussen desecrating the fireplace and, worst of all, the scene with Mary and John. In this regard HLV for is the saddest episode because there is nothing to counterbalance the intrusion.