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May 20, 2014 10:07 pm  #101


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I also have issues with the way they handled his time away - a little like Mycroft who referred to it as "holiday". Oh, so he had been chased through the forest like an animal, caught, beat up and sleep deprived.. never mind, here he is exchanging snarky comments with Mycroft and worrying about his shirt, everything´s fine. And this was only one incident, who knows what he went through during those two years. It is shown very very implicitly through his character growth, and him being (as Benedict put it) regressed, and I think it also shows in him losing some part of his brillance/intellect - that what happens to people after trauma or extreme stress. But when they brushed the two years off by never mentioning it again after the first few minutes they made it really hard for the audience to make the connection.

Last edited by Zatoichi (May 20, 2014 10:10 pm)

 

May 21, 2014 4:54 am  #102


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

tobeornot221b wrote:

Something that just occurred to me.
Unlike series 1 and 2, series 3 didn't induce new places of Sherlock pilgrimage. At least for me.
In series 1 we had several locations I often went to when in London: Angelo's, Hungerford Bridge, Skaters Park, Shaftsbury avenue and, of course, North Gower Street and Speedy's.
Series 2 introduced Irene's place, the Tower and - yes, that hospital site whose name I've forgotten...

In series 3 most of the new locations seem to be a bit out of the real world (the wedding place, the Watsons' home, Appledore) - and not very specific. Maybe apart from Leinster Gardens. And the Tube. Not as much of London to be seen in it than in the previous series'.

What about CAM's office building? From setlock I would think that it is pretty real and something you could go to and have a look at. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

Appledore is something I'd absolutely love to see, the architecture is really breathtaking. But you'd have to go to the edge of the Cotswolds in Gloucestershire in order to see it.

http://www.sherlockology.com/locations/appledore

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (May 21, 2014 4:55 am)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 21, 2014 5:07 am  #103


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

CAM's office building is real - a friend of mine who works in and around London apparantly walked past the filming of those scenes without even realising what was going on!!


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

May 21, 2014 5:12 am  #104


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Zatoichi wrote:

I also have issues with the way they handled his time away - a little like Mycroft who referred to it as "holiday". Oh, so he had been chased through the forest like an animal, caught, beat up and sleep deprived.. never mind, here he is exchanging snarky comments with Mycroft and worrying about his shirt, everything´s fine. And this was only one incident, who knows what he went through during those two years. It is shown very very implicitly through his character growth, and him being (as Benedict put it) regressed, and I think it also shows in him losing some part of his brillance/intellect - that what happens to people after trauma or extreme stress. But when they brushed the two years off by never mentioning it again after the first few minutes they made it really hard for the audience to make the connection.

I agree and then again I tend to disagree a bit.
I think the audience is much more clever than one might think. I think that everything you've mentioned - his character growth, him being regressed, him losing some of his brilliance - is so present in all three episodes that it's really hard to forget why he's a different Sherlock. To me those two years are present in almost every single scene, even if I don't know exactly what happened to him while he was away. But just seeing him alone in 221B or seeing Mary or seeing Sherlock solving a case with Molly or lots of other things... all these things practically shout right into my face "That's because he's been away for two years!".
Of course it could have been shown in a more explicit way throughout all three episodes, but I'm actually not a huge fan of too much explicitness when it comes to things like that. They found quite a few indirect ways of showing us what's going on, and this very often brought me back to those two years.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 21, 2014 5:37 am  #105


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I also think we see what John does.
I doubt he knows very much about those 2 years either...
Though at least WE seem to care!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 21, 2014 7:05 am  #106


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

@bb: I feel for John, he gets so sucked into everything that happens - Sherlock back with a very bad joke, bonfire, bomb attack, marriage, baby, Sherlock shot, another trust shattered etc - that he gets numbed, crippled by his emotions. He just can´t care about what Sherlock´s been through and what that means for his heart, not yet.. 

@Solar: Certainly gives me something to think about.. to me it wasn´t always that obvious throughout S3. Either I´m not clever enough, or I felt a bit overwhelmed by everything like John. Of course it´s obvious when he´s alone in 221b or solving cases with Molly, but when he slaps himself, can´t do rather simple deductions and shows all these extreme emotions bordering on madness I was confused at first. A little reminder that we´re dealing with a homecoming warrior might have helped to get it while it´s happening and not just in hindsight (and might have avoided all the "OOC!" outcries - obviously I was not alone with my confusion). 

 

May 21, 2014 7:14 am  #107


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Well, we get the scene in Serbia which represents what Sherlock has been through. It may well not have been the only such experience and then there is also the loneliness, the isolation, the hiding, maybe having to kill people, things we never see. But they did not put in the torture scene for nothing. I suppose they thought it sufficient proof of what Sherlock went through in these two years. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

May 21, 2014 7:44 am  #108


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Yes, you´re probably right in that it should be sufficient to get a picture of Sherlock´s past two years and the state it left him in. Still I think it gets buried under all the action that follows a bit too much.. the scene is only the first few minutes, and we only really know it´s Sherlock in the last few seconds, right before he sits in his chair all dapper and being teased by Mycroft as if nothing serious ever happened (the Holmes´ way of dealing with things, I know.) Before you can process the shock the action is continuing, and TEH is packed with it and new information.. as for me the Serbia-scene wasn´t really enough to establish the frame in which to interpret Sherlock´s actions from now on. But that might be just me being thick..or intended, in order to give the audience not too much advance in information over John.. 

Certainly more to ponder about, and a great reason to rewatch TEH (and complete S3) again..http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 

May 21, 2014 8:30 am  #109


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Zatoichi, I can understand very well that a lot of people (me included, by the way) initially thought that Sherlock's behaviour in S3 appears to be OOC. If I remember correctly I even opened a thread about this shortly after TEH had aired. And in close comparison to S1/S2 his behaviour at first sight indeed seems to be OOC because yes, that's not really the Sherlock we knew from the first two series.
But I think it's a good thing that they decided to give us something to think about instead of reminding us explicitly again and again why his behaviour is different.

Btw, I also find it interesting that Sherlock and John never talk about what those last two years have been like for each of them. Sherlock wants to tell John how he did it, John isn't interested in that and wants to know why Sherlock did it and who knew about it. But neither of them asks the question: "What have you been through, what was it like...?" 
And maybe that's because something like this can't be explained, you can't find the right words to explain it. So it's not just Sherlock's two years we don't learn all that much about, it's the same with John. He says that he's been mourning, that he let it all slide, that Mary was the best thing that could have happened to him... but that's about it.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 21, 2014 11:20 am  #110


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Yes, there are a lot of unspoken things between them. Which is said but maybe this is just what they do. John finds it difficult to talk about personal and emotional matters. So maybe this includes Sherlock's years of absence as well. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

May 21, 2014 11:48 am  #111


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Zatoichi wrote:

@Solar: Certainly gives me something to think about.. to me it wasn´t always that obvious throughout S3. Either I´m not clever enough, or I felt a bit overwhelmed by everything like John. Of course it´s obvious when he´s alone in 221b or solving cases with Molly, but when he slaps himself, can´t do rather simple deductions and shows all these extreme emotions bordering on madness I was confused at first. A little reminder that we´re dealing with a homecoming warrior might have helped to get it while it´s happening and not just in hindsight (and might have avoided all the "OOC!" outcries - obviously I was not alone with my confusion). 

In my opinion, Sherlock slapping himself was an obvious sign of a meltdown.
When he made deductions in the past, it was in the presence of John and Lestrade and a pair of policemen who were loitering in a background, in a quiet environment, investigating corpses who were already past any help so the question of time didn´t matter in their case. It´s no surprise Sherlock was sassy and self-assured in such an environment.
On the other hand, in TSOT he was in the situation that made him nervous and uneasy in the first place (since he hates marriages with passion), surrounded by the crowds of strangers and pressed by the time to save some yet unknown victim of the crime and to prevent John´s marriage from being spoilt by the tragedy... and all those details, all those clues and confusing shards of reality started to take their toll on him, to break him to pieces. The slap he administered to himself just barely saved him from a nasty hysterical meltdown.

We had similar, beautifully filmed scene in the Robert Downey´s "Sherlock Holmes" - SH is sitting in a crowded restaurant and notices so much detail of his surroundings, of people stuffing themselves, having conversation and running here and there, that he starts feeling overwhelmed and almost bolts from there. TSOT kinda parallels that.

Last edited by nakahara (May 21, 2014 11:51 am)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 21, 2014 12:14 pm  #112


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Straight to the point, nakahara. Could not agree more. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

May 21, 2014 12:21 pm  #113


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

nakahara, I also agree.
But I have an additional question (because you didn't specifically adress this): So would you say that this 'meltdown' would have happened anyway, even if Sherlock hadn't been away for two years, experiencing who knows what?


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

May 21, 2014 12:26 pm  #114


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

SolarSystem wrote:

nakahara, I also agree.
But I have an additional question (because you didn't specifically adress this): So would you say that this 'meltdown' would have happened anyway, even if Sherlock hadn't been away for two years, experiencing who knows what?

No, I think his harsh experiences overseas largely contributed to his state there. He would be probably more composed in the past.
But I doubt he would be comfortable around crowds of strangers anyway - he is introverted and doesn´t like to associate himself with so many people he don´t know or trust.
 

Last edited by nakahara (May 21, 2014 12:27 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 21, 2014 12:41 pm  #115


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Another thought: I wonder if he had consented to do this for John's wedding if he had not been away. Because I think that the long absence and loneliness showed him that after all he does need other people in his life. Comparing his efforts and his self-conquest before and during the wedding with his behaviour in the birthday video … in this regard he is a changed man after these two years. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

May 21, 2014 12:49 pm  #116


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

SusiGo wrote:

Another thought: I wonder if he had consented to do this for John's wedding if he had not been away. Because I think that the long absence and loneliness showed him that after all he does need other people in his life. Comparing his efforts and his self-conquest before and during the wedding with his behaviour in the birthday video … in this regard he is a changed man after these two years. 

He probably wouldn´t - we saw in a Christmas special, in a Lestrade´s video that he avoided such occurences like a plague before, even when they were organised for John´s sake.
His two years absence changed him in this instance.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 21, 2014 4:30 pm  #117


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

As it would anybody!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 5, 2014 4:03 pm  #118


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I'm still new and working through all the threads, so forgive me if I ask a question all ready debated.

My biggest issue with season three is, how did Mycroft not know about Mary? What are the fan solutions to this huge glaring plot hole?

I was disappointed with season three just because of this issue. Had she been a former Mycroft associate and he just stayed silent or something I could buy that, but ...... eh, just didn't work for me the way it was.

Anyone got fabulous ideas on this? I would love to love season three, but as just a casual viewer,  that plot hole totally threw me!

~Charley

 

July 5, 2014 8:55 pm  #119


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Are we certain Mycroft didn't know?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 5, 2014 8:57 pm  #120


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I think this is one of the big gaps that hopefully will be filled in series 4. We should remember that there are always unsolved things (the pool, Moriarty's plan, the fall, etc.) continued in the next episodes. It is in the nature of the show. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

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