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March 11, 2014 1:53 pm  #1


Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

There are three instances in TEH and HLV - two for John and one for Sherlock - when they hear each others voices in their heads. They are all very different from the voices and characters in Sherlock's mind palace and not connected to any deductions but IMO purely emotional (this is the reason Sherlock tries to get rid of John's voice as it is distracting him from work).

This is the first. John enters 221B after his long absence. In the hallway he hears Sherlock playing the violin followed by their famous exchange from ASiP. 
JOHN: That was the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever done.
SHERLOCK: And you invaded Afghanistan.



Then there is the dream we have discussed in another thread. So John hears Sherlock in his head while being awake and asleep. Both times he is reminded of/relives key moments in their relationship - Sherlock's invitation to come along and their carefree laughter in the hallway of 221b. 

The third instance is Sherlock on his day with Molly in TEH where he is hearing John's voice in his head mocking him. This and the fact that he is calling Molly "John" indicates that he may be "not really in the picture anymore" but he is still in his head. And maybe somewhere else as well. 



 

Last edited by SusiGo (March 11, 2014 1:58 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2014 1:58 pm  #2


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

Several proofs how deep their relationship is. Oh yes ...


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(Tony Hadley)

 
 

March 11, 2014 3:01 pm  #3


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

Sometimes when people mean a lot to you, you can addapt their voices in your head. I think this is the case here.


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March 11, 2014 5:04 pm  #4


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I just get seriously worried about Sherlock in this scene. He's pretty sczicophrenic.


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March 11, 2014 6:46 pm  #5


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I thought it was interesting that John's voice in Sherlock's head was derisive and critical. John seemed comforted/intrigued, by Sherlock's. 

 

March 11, 2014 6:55 pm  #6


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

Yes it is interesting. Mind you, it's like he says

"You, it's always you, you keep me right"

Johns words, however derisory they sound sometimes, keep Sherlock on the right track. I think he needs john to do that.


.............................................................

I'm clueing for looks

 

March 11, 2014 7:14 pm  #7


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I was wondering about that "jealous" right there. Why, and what did it refer to?


__________________________________

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March 11, 2014 7:40 pm  #8


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

It might be the Sherlolly shipper in me, but I interpreted the 'jealous' to be  seeing Molly's engagement ring (which was on full display at the time when she was examining the body) 

 

March 11, 2014 7:49 pm  #9


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

Well observed, Susi, as always.
I find the voices Sherlock hears especially interesting. He talks to people inside his head a lot, like in TSOT where he has really long conversations that happen only in his mind. It seems that all the voices and people there are reduced to the meaning they have for Sherlock.
Look at Molly, for example, in the mind palace scene in HLV. I could imagine if the real Molly found out Sherlock was dying she would get more or less emotional, but the Molly in Sherlock's mind is totally calm and makes a survival plan based on her professional knowledge. So to Sherlock Molly is someone who stays calm in very critical situations. In his mind she's of course the representation of a calm and logical part of Sherlock himself.
Mycroft always appears as the helpful but annoying and harshly criticising big brother. It seems that Sherlock has internalised Mycroft's criticism in order to push himself to better achievements.
John's function is to help Sherlock get along with other people, and sometimes to point out very obvious and simple things that Sherlock misses because he's too focused on the details. Of course that doesn't work well if John is only in his mind, because there is no part of Sherlock's self that knows how to be polite to others, and he can hardly point out things to himself that he has overlooked. John has to be there in person to do that.
Another thing Sherlock can't provide for himself is kindness and affection. The voices he hears and the people he sees in his mind as impersonations of his own thoughts are never very nice to him. This becomes especially obvious in the scene in TEH where John's voice isn't even trying to be helpful but only speaks in a mocking tone, and Sherlock seems very upset. To provide the usual mixture of friendly mockery and praise the real John would have to be present, because on his own Sherlock can't find so many nice words for himself.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

March 11, 2014 9:10 pm  #10


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I thought it was interesting that John's voice in Sherlock's head was derisive and critical. John seemed comforted/intrigued, by Sherlock's. 

Think of the situation in which this happens. It is the day after John has attacked Sherlock three times. He headbutted him when Sherlock asked him to come on a case with him. Despite of Mary's assurances Sherlock has reason to assume that John will not work with him again. And does not want to resume their friendship which might be even worse. Therefore I think he concentrates on John's negative comments/attitude. He may well think that he has lost John and knows only too well that Molly cannot replace him.

As for the jealousy - this is really interesting because John has been jealous in the past (Irene) and Sherlock may have been jealous of John's girlfriends but John has never said this to Sherlock.
Maybe he thinks John would call him jealous of Molly because she adapts quite well to the task and sort of surges ahead with the investigationof the skeleton but this does not really make sense. 
Or he thinks John might call him jealous of Mary because she has become the centre of John's life, a place Sherlock previously occupied.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

March 11, 2014 9:56 pm  #11


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

SusiGo wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I thought it was interesting that John's voice in Sherlock's head was derisive and critical. John seemed comforted/intrigued, by Sherlock's. 

Think of the situation in which this happens. It is the day after John has attacked Sherlock three times. He headbutted him when Sherlock asked him to come on a case with him. Despite of Mary's assurances Sherlock has reason to assume that John will not work with him again. And does not want to resume their friendship which might be even worse. Therefore I think he concentrates on John's negative comments/attitude. He may well think that he has lost John and knows only too well that Molly cannot replace him.

This is interesting; Sherlock has had two dangerous years taking down a worldwide criminal network, a thoroughly nasty time being beaten up by a Serbian interrogator, and returns to England to spend his evening being beaten up by John. Viewed in that light one can certainly see why John's voice would be derisive and critical.

SusiGo wrote:

As for the jealousy - this is really interesting because John has been jealous in the past (Irene) and Sherlock may have been jealous of John's girlfriends but John has never said this to Sherlock.
Maybe he thinks John would call him jealous of Molly because she adapts quite well to the task and sort of surges ahead with the investigationof the skeleton but this does not really make sense. 
Or he thinks John might call him jealous of Mary because she has become the centre of John's life, a place Sherlock previously occupied.

I think the jealousy question is one which Sherlock is asking about himself; he has gone away to fight an undeclared war against Moriarty's associates and when he gets back he has, apparently,  been replaced. Sherlock is not the first returning warrior to experience that...

 

 

March 12, 2014 9:38 am  #12


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

John′s „derisive voice“ reminded me of an interesting custom they had in ancient Rome:
 
When a victorious Roman commander entered Rome after successful campaign, he usually rode on a triumphant chariot, decorated with wreaths, surrounded by captured enemies in chains and with the rich spoils of war. Romans chceered and loudly praised him as if he was a god or some mythological hero. Still, it was a custom that some normal civilian person stood on the chariot by his side at the time of his triumph and reminded him in a stern voice: „don′t make much account of their appraisal of you, you are just a human being!“
 
This custom was established among Romans to prevent excessive pride and hubris that such displays of public favor could provoke in their commanders. It′s not wise to be overconfident and to have too much pride in your abilities. Such overconfidence will gradually blind you to your flaws and finally destroy you. Therefore it′s beneficiary for you to have somebody who will cool your overzealous energy and who will force you to look at your deeds more objectively.
 
John was such a person to Sherlock from the moment they had that „a bit not good, yes“ conversation in ASiP. Every time when Sherlock started to launch his favourite rant about people being stupid or when he was overly cheerful at the site of some gruesome crime, John intervened and steered him back towards his real goal (an investigation) with some witty cutting remark, preventing an unnecessary conflict between Sherlock and Scotland Yard or some other people involved in the crime. John′s intervention was usually also a cue for Sherlock that he overstepped the boundaries and that he should back up a little and it enabled Sherlock to stop and analyse the situation in a more detached manner. John thus proved to be invaluable for Sherlock who was heedless of such social niceties and was unable to spot those things himself.
 
Because in this scene it′s actually Sherlock speaking to himself, it′s possible that he internalised John′s voice and that he is trying to tame his own wild force and his instinctual rudeness with it. It′s also a sign that he really misses John and finds his presence neccessary for a successful investigation. John′s voice resonating in Sherlock′s mind is therefore a proof of their friendship rather than derogatory and unkind dissing of our favourite detective.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 12, 2014 12:56 pm  #13


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

Facinating fact about the Romans.  Had never heard that.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 12, 2014 12:58 pm  #14


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

This is a beautiful explanation, nakahara. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

March 12, 2014 4:03 pm  #15


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

It is, indeed, a beautiful explanation but there is considerable doubt as to whether the slave whispering over and over again 'Remember you are mortal' actually happened. Mary Beard's book on Roman triumphs notes that there's not much in the way of contemporaneous evidence to support it, though I have wondered whether the decision by Roman Emperors to become gods may have been influenced by this. I have always rather liked the story of Vespasian commenting that he appeared to be turning into a god, as his ironic way of acknowledging that he was dying...

 

March 12, 2014 5:24 pm  #16


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I thought it showed how hard it was for Sherlock that John rejected him at that point of the story, where he had already difficulties readjusting to his life in London. Probably he was also feeling self-conscious because he was so wrong in assuming John had just waited for him to return and his waiter-trick went so terribly wrong. All this really put him off his game and turned John´s once friendly mockery to derisive voices in his head ("you forgot to turn up your collar"..) 

 

March 12, 2014 7:07 pm  #17


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I see this completly different I think it shows that Sherlock is missing John and his sarcastic remarks.  Crime solving with Molly just isnt the same. And he isnt off his game, he realises its a fake crime.

 

March 12, 2014 7:29 pm  #18


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I got the feeling that it's hard for Sherlock to tell the difference between "John's voice" and his own self-loathing, and if you add to that memories of John saying some fairly sarcastic things to him, (flipping up his collar to look cool, cheekbones, etc, ) it would make for a serious muddle. I could see that seriously messing with him, particularily in the middle of a case. 

 

March 12, 2014 7:50 pm  #19


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

I agree Sherlock is in a muddle there, after all this is the second time he is stumbling over his words (the first time was when Irene confused him).

But for me the difference is that Sherlock is missing John and not hurt by derisive remarks. What Sherlock imagnes John would be saying is pretty sarcastic but after all John has always been pretty saracstic and didnt mean his remarks to be hurtful. And I never thought Sherlock was hurt by Johns remarks. For me this scene shows how much Sherlock misses and needs John.

 

 

March 12, 2014 9:11 pm  #20


Re: Sherlock and John - voices in their heads

The voices in my head have some pretty good ideas sometimes.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

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