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August 14, 2014 8:44 am  #2321


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Fine, thank you. Not sure what I am going to make of it. Of course it has to be strictly scientic. 

As for the Christmas scene - I always get the feeling that they did everything to make her look as ugly as possible. The Red and Green looks awful together. In TEH and TSoT there are scenes in which she looks lovely but did you notice that she gets uglier from the outside while getting uglier in her behaviour? Or is this just me? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 14, 2014 8:53 am  #2322


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Oh, gosh, I'm so relieved someone feels like me about this....
Never dared to spell it out loud because it's not supposed to come across as Amanda-bashing. But the costumes.....Gah! The red lip-stick...double gah!!
I think she was the prettiest in TEH in the restaurant. Decent, soft make up, warm smile.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

August 14, 2014 8:57 am  #2323


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Yes. I am relieved as well because I did not want to be a poor pregnant woman/Amanda bashing idiot but she looks so terrible in that scene that my first thought was: Why the hell should he go back to that woman when he can have that glorious looking man? But maybe this is just shallow me. 

And as for the record - a pregnant woman does not necessarily have to look like that. Or did they want to show how badly she has been suffering from John's distance?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 9:05 am  #2324


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Rest assured you are not shallow, we have tons of eloquent posts to prove that
The thought of her looking miserable becaus eof the seperation never ocurred to me but it could be possible. But why choose the yelling red then, not earthly colours? A decent lipstick? Softer light?

 

Last edited by mrshouse (August 14, 2014 9:06 am)


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

August 14, 2014 9:10 am  #2325


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Thank you, dear. 

I think they are working on two levels: 
- the obvious level:  John forgiving his wife, she is in tears, happy future with baby in spite of all that has happened
- the subtextual level: she does not look happy or pretty, and what always makes me angry - her bickering about John not even being allowed the choose the baby's name. 

IMO Moffat does exactly the same in the Baker Street scene before: John is understandably angry, Sherlock looks terrible and deserves our empathy, Mary looks cool, some have even called it reptilian. But on the surface we are meant to forgive her and see her as the perfect partner for John. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 9:11 am  #2326


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

I have no idea what they were thinking, but I agree that Mary looked very lovely in the restaurant scene in TEH and gradually looked, yes, more ugly. She looks pretty nice in her wedding dress (although I think the dress itself is pretty boring, but that's a matter of taste), but when she gives her thumbs up to Sherlock and John after manipulating them... that's the first time that I thought she looked a bit weird.
That coat and the lipstick really have an alarming shade of red, almost with a bit of orange in there. I mean, there is red and then there is red, but this red comes almost across as a bit tasteless to me.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 14, 2014 9:16 am  #2327


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Yes, her lovely appearance disappears the more we get to know about her. This is really cleverly done and cannot be coincidence. 
I am still trying to get my head around why they make her wear the same coat in the bonfire scene and on the tarmac. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 9:19 am  #2328


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, her lovely appearance disappears the more we get to know about her. This is really cleverly done and cannot be coincidence. 
I am still trying to get my head around why they make her wear the same coat in the bonfire scene and on the tarmac. 

Maybe because she just has this one coat which was wide enough for her pregnancy?
The grey one from the cemetery is rather tight:

 

Last edited by tobeornot221b (August 14, 2014 9:23 am)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

August 14, 2014 9:22 am  #2329


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Yes, excactly. But what just came across my mind that if we just consider how the actors look they handled Sherlock and Mary very differently (although the Mofftiss keep emphasizing that they have similar morals and are more fitting than we think):
Sherlock looks miserable in the Baker street scene, true, but his face is soft, his looks are with soft eyes and even when he spells out the "truth" about John being all addicted to certain characters his voice is sad and soft. You want to hug him and just tell him everything will be allright.
In the christmas scene when Mary is to be forgiven and they reconcile the first thing we get from her is snark. When you only want to shake her through and yell at her " Be a bit more humble! You caused these two men pain!" It is underlined by this horrible combination of red and green like a christmas gobblin. I think pregnant women can be truly pretty but also the presentation of her belly just screams "Don't annoy me!" The lightning is all bright and not caressing for her at all. John on the other hand looks quite handsome in his jacket and shirt.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

August 14, 2014 9:25 am  #2330


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

I agree with all you are saying. And all these undercurrents are what makes those scenes so hard to watch, at least for me. I get the feeling of being manipulated into something that goes against my deepest instinct and conviction. If this is deliberate (and I think it is), hats off to Moffat and all the actors! 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 9:32 am  #2331


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Well, one could argue that Sherlock wears the same coat all the time (but that's canon, I suppose?). 
If I remember correctly, Mary wears three different coats altogether. The red one, the black one after the restaurant scene and yet another one when she is standing at Sherlock's grave with John - am I right? So the question is indeed why she's wearing the red coat twice.
She starts wearing it after Sherlock's return - and yes, I am aware that we see next to nothing of her before his return. But still. In both the bonfire and the tarmac scene she basically is a bystander, she watches Sherlock saving John and she watches John saying goodbye to Sherlock. She lets things happen - maybe because deep inside she knows that everything will play out to her effect? But maybe the red also means that she tries to draw attention to her herself in a sense of 'I want to be part of this, I am part of this, look at me, it's not just the two of you anymore'...? 

edit: sorry, I was late with my post, it was a rersponse to Susi...

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (August 14, 2014 9:38 am)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 14, 2014 9:36 am  #2332


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

I do clearly not like both of your interpretations, Solar...

But the reddish colour does not only turn up in the coat but also in the lipstick and this stiff neck in the christmas scene. And as the christmas scene starts with snark and ends with her refusing John to take part in the baby naming thing I always thought she pretty much gained control here. And not in a way that I could be happy in the sense of" Oh look, this is finally a strong woman standing her ground".
And it also belittles for me her breaking down and crying when John makes his "romantic" speech.

Last edited by mrshouse (August 14, 2014 9:41 am)


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

August 14, 2014 9:49 am  #2333


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

The grey one, Solar, as seen in my post above, is too tight for her at the end of her pregnancy.

 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

August 14, 2014 9:59 am  #2334


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Yes, tobe, but that's a practical problem. If they had wanted Mary to wear a grey coat at for example the tarmac scene, the costume department would have found a grey coat in the right size. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 14, 2014 10:00 am  #2335


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Reasonable as always, tobe. 

And I am by no means sure of the symbolic meaning of that coat but for me the colour in this sad farewell scene is like a slap to the face. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 10:02 am  #2336


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

mrshouse wrote:

I do clearly not like both of your interpretations, Solar...

But the reddish colour does not only turn up in the coat but also in the lipstick and this stiff neck in the christmas scene. And as the christmas scene starts with snark and ends with her refusing John to take part in the baby naming thing I always thought she pretty much gained control here. And not in a way that I could be happy in the sense of" Oh look, this is finally a strong woman standing her ground".
And it also belittles for me her breaking down and crying when John makes his "romantic" speech.

I really don't like her in that scene at all, because she makes it all appear and sound as if none of what's happened was her fault in any way. "Oh, we're doing conversation today...!" - makes me really aggressive. And it doesn't get any better in the course of the scene, I'm afraid. And this has nothing to do with Johnlock or no Johnlock, it's all about her.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 14, 2014 10:04 am  #2337


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Mary will be glad that Sherlock leaves. Why should she wear anything "sad-coloured"?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ten:" I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye."

Sherlock: "I heard you.”

"Temptation coursing through our veins " 
(Tony Hadley)

 
 

August 14, 2014 10:04 am  #2338


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

Yes. They could have done many good things to make us like or at least understand her but did nothing to achieve that goal. Or shall we think it funny when they start bickering about mowing the lawn and choosing baby names after all that happened?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

August 14, 2014 10:09 am  #2339


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

SusiGo wrote:

Yes. They could have done many good things to make us like or at least understand her but did nothing to achieve that goal. Or shall we think it funny when they start bickering about mowing the lawn and choosing baby names after all that happened?

Actually, I think it is quite common for couples to start joking around right after they have just reconciled after a conflict. I guess that's what this is supposed to be - but I'm not bying it. 
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 14, 2014 10:10 am  #2340


Re: The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

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