BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What's in a dream?

SusiGo · March 5, 2014 8:23 pm

I think we have not discussed John's dream from HLV which is quite interesting.

In this dream - this time definitely not a nightmare although the beginning is similar to ASiP - John briefly returns to Afghanistan and his war memories but they are soon replaced by Sherlock and the magical question of “Want to see some more?” that first drew him into Sherlock’s world. All that happened afterwards - Moriarty, the fall, the return, the wedding - seems to be suspended for one fleeting moment.

They use the actual dialogue from ASiP but skip the lines after John’s “Oh God, yes” and immediately have Sherlock continue with “The game is on.” Only this time it is directed at John, not at Mrs Hudson. It is interesting to see how dream (Sherlock) and reality (John’s pillow) blend until you see the two of men side by side.

And look at John’s face after he wakes up - no tears like after his nightmare in ASiP, “Oh God, yes” still on his lips. This is what he has been missing. This scene allows much room for interpretation depending on how you see their relationship.
- John misses the excitement, the battlefield he has seen with Sherlock.
- John feels the pull, the "thrill of the chase", the two of them "against the world" symbolised by Sherlock's words from ASiP when he kind of seduced him into coming with him to Lauriston Gardens.
- John is lying in bed beside the woman he has just married and dreams of his best friend. Well.

I think this dream also explains John’s strange behaviour in the scenes that follow. When he opens the door for Kate he is still caught in his dream, maybe even expects to see Sherlock in front of the door. So he may feel disappointed which results in his harsh, slightly aggressive behaviour. And he in fact adopts a manner of speaking similar to Sherlock's.

In the following conversation he is still thinking about Sherlock, mentions him right at the beginning although Kate has not asked for any practical help so far.
"Look, is it Sherlock Holmes you want? Because I’ve not seen him in ages." One could play the devil's adcovate and say that not Kate but John wants Sherlock. Mary reacts impatiently and points out that there are still people who do not know about Sherlock. So he recently may have been talking to much about Sherlock for her taste (pure speculation but there must be a reason for her reaction).

They drive to the drug den, John marches in, sprains Billy's arm, and finds Sherlock. That he is angry does not surprise me and of course he is worried about him. But there is also a marked contrast between the Sherlock of his dream - brilliant, confident, composed - and the shabby drugged guy on the mattress. John realises that despite his protestations to the contrary from TSoT things between them have changed indeed. And the dream shows that he is not at peace with himself.

nakahara · March 5, 2014 8:45 pm

He only realised after marriage that he has hots for Sherlock, is angry about it and his drug-den raid crowned with beating of Wiggins is just a method of how to vent his sexual frustration.

Last edited by nakahara (March 5, 2014 8:46 pm)

SusiGo · March 5, 2014 8:55 pm

You may have a point there, nakahara.

nakahara · March 5, 2014 8:59 pm

I wouldn′t be surprised if it was actually the real thing behind John′s dreams considering John′s power of denial.

Harriet · March 5, 2014 9:24 pm

Very insightful and considerate thoughts, Susi. Thanks

nakahara wrote:
He only realised after marriage that he has hots for Sherlock, is angry about it and his drug-den raid crowned with beating of Wiggins is just a method of how to vent his sexual frustration.

No need to , nakahara. Just leave it with a full stop after "frustration" and we are fine.

Willow · March 5, 2014 9:28 pm

nakahara wrote:
I wouldn′t be surprised if it was actually the real thing behind John′s dreams considering John′s power of denial.

I am sure that John's dream does reflect his strong desire for the companionship he shared with Sherlock, which is as important as the physical excitement of the adventures shared; this is, after all, the iconic centrepiece of the stories which have captured the imagination of so many people, in so many places, for so long.

They don't have to be in love with each other to love each other; they are not necessarily Achilles and Patroclus, though there may well be elements of that story intertwined with their own.

What I do feel is indisputable is that life with the dangerous woman he has married is not an adequate substitute for what he had before, because John valued his role as Sherlock's shield man, and valued the sense that they were setting out to slay dragons together; he may not want to admit this consciously, but when he sleeps the truth emerges...

nakahara · March 5, 2014 10:27 pm

I find it interesting how that sequence of John′s dream is structured: it began with scary images of danger, death and excitement but the moment Sherlock appeared it all changed – the loud bangs dissapeared, the sense of danger was subdued and replaced with certain sense of calm...

It′s almost as if Sherlock brought harmony and security into John′s life (and subsequently into his dream) and not the other way around.

SusiGo · March 5, 2014 10:31 pm

Yes, that is true. As if John started having one of his usual nightmares which suddenly changed to the positive dream of Sherlock. Well, there seem to be some hidden desires in there.

lil · March 6, 2014 5:30 pm

Yes interesting...the dream does callback to ASIP where John was given a choice.
when you walk with Sherlock Holmes you see the battlefield..time to choose a side Dr Watson.

Every time John let a woman blow him off over Sherlock..he was choosing again.
When Sherlock is gone..so is the choice and Mary takes Johns hand over Sherlocks grave.
Sherlock returns and the choice is back, Johns conflicted.
In the dream we see that with Sherlock in command the battlefield is not so scary a place..again like in ASIP as Mycroft noted...John misses the battlefield.
Yet look at the longshot of the bed..Mary is still holding his hand.
Maybe he feels she is holding him back from the battlefield..

When he wakes he immediately takes the opportunity to head out towards a battlefield..and maybe a case and maybe Sherlock.
Marys comments hint..he can't really miss Sherlock after only a month..does John need to see him that often..and look Sherlocks not so important..some people havn't heard of him.John refuses to listen..leaving and insisting Mary stays behind..she doesnt want him to go..he can't go she's pregnant...but John won't be held back anymore..and left with no option Mary goes along.

I wonder why Mary didn't want him to go help the neighbours son..she knows Johns past and that he can handle some not that dangerous teenage druggies...and why does she go along..she can't go she is the pregnant one.
Does she suspect it will lead to Sherlocks involvement...and is she trying to keep John away from that....

Last edited by lil (March 6, 2014 5:34 pm)

mrshouse · March 6, 2014 5:35 pm

Interesting thread.
But in my opinion the dream could become nil and nothing the second we learn that Mary can also provide the danger fix for John. This is such a sad thought and my major concern, Sherlocks place in Johns life, even in the series. Or did I miss something in the dream?

lil · March 6, 2014 5:41 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Interesting thread.
But in my opinion the dream could become nil and nothing the second we learn that Mary can also provide the danger fix for John. This is such a sad thought and my major concern, Sherlocks place in Johns life, even in the series. Or did I miss something in the dream?

I think before Marys truth are revealed John feels going onto the battlefield takes Mary along and into danger too so is conflicted...this is resolved at the end I suppose when John realises Mary is quite able to handle danger herself.
Doctor and a soldier...Sherlocks dangerous assistant and husband and father.
Similar to Sherlocks realisation..John has Mary now but still needs Sherlock.
Similar to Marys...John has her..but still needs Sherlock.

Last edited by lil (March 6, 2014 5:46 pm)

Willow · March 6, 2014 6:29 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Interesting thread.
But in my opinion the dream could become nil and nothing the second we learn that Mary can also provide the danger fix for John. This is such a sad thought and my major concern, Sherlocks place in Johns life, even in the series. Or did I miss something in the dream?

I don't believe Mary does provide a danger fix for John; it's one of those ideas which sounds vaguely plausible until you think it through. It isn't being in Sherlock's company which provides the danger fix; it's the adventures that they share together which can be really dangerous, though not always, but are also great fun and provide the sense of comradeship which arises when people survive the battlefield together.

John may have been unknowingly attracted to Mary because he sensed her capacity for violence, though I am exceedingly dubious about that idea; I do worry that it's close to arguing that a woman in an abusive relationship actually chose a man she knew would beat her up because deep down she wanted it to be like that. I don't want to touch that one with a sixteen feet barge pole.

But if we go back to the second part of Mycroft's comments there's a really important proviso: it's time to choose a side. Sherlock is on the side of the angels; by definition, anyone prepared to take out someone who is a major force for good, a man who believes that there is a good which is not simply defined by 'what do I want', is not on the side of the angels.

John's dream is, I think, a very good way of showing us that Sherlock provides him with a sense of safety, as well as excitement, and as HLV continues we see that John needs someone to channel his desire for excitement into something constructive rather than destructive.

Storming a crack house with a tyre lever was, no doubt, fun, but there was no hint that John intended to do anything at all to provide practical help for the boy he was supposed to be there to rescue; we come back to earlier themes about caring or not caring. John talks the talk but he isn't there for the boy; he's there for himself.

Whereas Sherlock is prepared to make sacrifices for others; we do see him showing signs of becoming the good man that Lestrade hoped he would grow into, but John seems to be going in the opposite direction. I cannot help but feel that Mary's influence over him is not a benign one...

QuiteExtraordinary · March 6, 2014 7:21 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Interesting thread.
But in my opinion the dream could become nil and nothing the second we learn that Mary can also provide the danger fix for John. This is such a sad thought and my major concern, Sherlocks place in Johns life, even in the series. Or did I miss something in the dream?

I think that's quite an important point. The dream starts with the war, like one of John's old nightmares (his fingers even twitch). But then Sherlock appears, and it's really just Sherlock - not a crime scene or anything. That means it's not (only) "the thrill of the chase" that John is missing but (also) Sherlock with all his qualities and oddities. Even Sherlock himself probably never noticed how much John likes him as a person, and that for him there's no one else who could take Sherlock's place.
(If Sherlock could take Mary's place is a different question and surely open for interpretation.)

belis · March 6, 2014 7:58 pm

Willow wrote:
John may have been unknowingly attracted to Mary because he sensed her capacity for violence, though I am exceedingly dubious about that idea; I do worry that it's close to arguing that a woman in an abusive relationship actually chose a man she knew would beat her up because deep down she wanted it to be like that. I don't want to touch that one with a sixteen feet barge pole.

It's a difficult topic to discuss and I hope I won't upset anyone. I wouldn't want to suggest that people in abusive relationships choose their partner with an intention of being beaten up. However there is a question as to why certain people (often those who witnessed domestic abuse as children) keep ending up in abusive relationships time and time again. There are various theories about that from psychodynamic, through learnt behaviour to brain chemistry but it remains a fact that they are attracted to a type of person who has predisposition to being violent towards them. That’s not the same as saying that they are to blame for what happens to them.

Willow · March 6, 2014 8:53 pm

belis wrote:
Willow wrote:
John may have been unknowingly attracted to Mary because he sensed her capacity for violence, though I am exceedingly dubious about that idea; I do worry that it's close to arguing that a woman in an abusive relationship actually chose a man she knew would beat her up because deep down she wanted it to be like that. I don't want to touch that one with a sixteen feet barge pole.
It's a difficult topic to discuss and I hope I won't upset anyone. I wouldn't want to suggest that people in abusive relationships choose their partner with an intention of being beaten up. However there is a question as to why certain people (often those who witnessed domestic abuse as children) keep ending up in abusive relationships time and time again. There are various theories about that from psychodynamic, through learnt behaviour to brain chemistry but it remains a fact that they are attracted to a type of person who has predisposition to being violent towards them. That’s not the same as saying that they are to blame for what happens to them.

Thank you; I see the distinction you are drawing, and that, confronted with someone who has a repeated pattern of apparently self-destructive behaviour, you need to explore possible explanations for why they are doing it if you are to have any hope of helping them to break the pattern. I can certainly see that children who grow up in a family in which one partner physically or emotionally abuses the other may well believe that this is the way the world works, and the first abusive relationship they enter into would reinforce that belief so that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doomed to repeat itself over and over again. I suppose that in some bizarre way it may feel safer to be in the familiar abusive relationship than one which is uncharted territory to them.

I will stick with my view that Mary is not a benign influence on John, but you and I have agreed to disagree on that one

Willow · March 7, 2014 12:33 am

I overlooked one point about Sherlock which I should have mentioned vis a vis his character development, and that was his attitude to Bill Wiggins, found in the crack den doing his incompetent best to prevent people entering, whilst monitoring his charges for ODs.

Sherlock, notwithstanding being apparently drugged up himself, intervenes to get Bill some treatment for his 'it's not broken' arm, is interested in him, and his abilities, and following the exchange at Leinster Gardens, the next time we see him is in the Holmes' house on Christmas Day, providing his assistance to drugging the household.

The dialogue line which fascinates me is Sherlock saying to him:

'Probably stop talking now'

We have reached the point where Sherlock, who once needed John to tell him when he should stop talking now, is mentoring Bill in navigating the world, and it's incredibly sweet, sorry, an incredible step forward in Sherlock's development as a human being.

Actually, it's also incredibly sweet, and since I do have a bona fide injury which might in other circumstances have provided me with a blanket to show that I'm in shock, due to my adrenal function being a tad erratic at the best of times, I feel I can get away with pointing out that it's incredibly sweet

Last edited by Willow (March 7, 2014 12:37 am)

Zatoichi · March 7, 2014 6:51 am

Well, it is incredibly sweet. I always thought the way he treats his Homeless Network, Graffiti artists and so on shows the respect he has for his fellow human beings below all this cold surface, but towards Bill it becomes even more visible. And it´s endearing.. sorry, Sherlock ^^.

My interpretation of the dream sequence is quite unromantic, I merely saw it as a flash-back to John´s traumatic experience, followed by Sherlock who normally distracts him but is not available now. So John wakes up with all the adrenaline in him, and being left without his accustomed way of dealing with it (because Sherlock keeps away from him for the case) he goes beserk and storms the drug den. Him being so harsh to the neighbour imo just shows how much under pressure he is in that moment, he is probably very grateful for the opportunity to have a proper "fight or flight" response to vent all his stress hormons.

SusiGo · March 7, 2014 7:51 am

Coming back to the dream for a moment - I think this is one more example for the way they always offer several interpretations. Personally I tend to see it in a more emotional way, that John does indeed miss Sherlock in his life and that married life with Mary may not be enough for him. I do not believe that a "dangerous" Mary could ever replace the things he finds in Sherlock - comradeship/the thrill of the chase/love - whatever you wish to believe there is.
If this was only about the excitement, the London battlefield, they could have shown them running around, jumping over rooftops, chasing taxis - which they do not. We only see Sherlock's face and hear the seductive words: "Want to see some more?"
To me this element of the dream shows that at least part of John secretly wishes to return to the time before the fall.

Zatoichi · March 7, 2014 8:21 am

SusiGo wrote:
Coming back to the dream for a moment - I think this is one more example for the way they always offer several interpretations. Personally I tend to see it in a more emotional way, that John does indeed miss Sherlock in his life and that married life with Mary may not be enough for him. I do not believe that a "dangerous" Mary could ever replace the things he finds in Sherlock - comradeship/the thrill of the chase/love - whatever you wish to believe there is.
If this was only about the excitement, the London battlefield, they could have shown them running around, jumping over rooftops, chasing taxis - which they do not. We only see Sherlock's face and hear the seductive words: "Want to see some more?"

I agree that the dreams indicates John misses Sherlock in this life. His words "Want to see some more?" and "The Game is on!" contain all the excitement, the battlefield and their adventure for John without actually having to show it, just as well as their friendship and their mutual feeling of belonging to each other/being a team. Very simple and very neatly done imo!

And I also don´t believe Mary could ever replace Sherlock, but then that was never intended by any of them. I don´t believe Mary wants to keep John away from Sherlock as much as possible, it was Sherlock who withdrew himself for the sake of the case (at least this is what canon says). I kind of sympathize with her wanting her husband to focus on her on their honeymoon and not to dramatize the fact they haven´t seen each other for a month.

SusiGo wrote:
To me this element of the dream shows that at least part of John secretly wishes to return to the time before the fall.

And I have the feeling he is not the only one..

tonnaree · March 7, 2014 12:59 pm

I agree with the theory that the main reason why Mary can never take the place of Sherlock lies with their core difference. Sherlock is on the side of the angels. Mary is not. But of course we have this discussion already going in several threads!!