BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Coincidence? Or Not-- Henry VIII and Mary....

RavenMorganLeigh · March 3, 2014 4:39 am

Okay, so while watching HLV –again-- during the scene where Mary is walking towards the Empty Houses; she walks past ..wait for it.. The Henry VIII Hotel.
And I thought….no…..no way….
But Henry VIII was succeeded to the throne by his daughter Mary Tudor, who also was known as Bloody Mary, because of all the Protestants and Heretics she put to death, one of which was a pregnant woman who was burned alive. In short, for her restoration of Catholicism to England was Holy War.
The other interesting thing about Mary Tudor is that she suffered from phantom pregnancies—All the symptoms including a swollen belly; it may have been a tumor instead.
It makes me wonder if there’s actually a clue here about Mary Morstan and her character arc, or have I just gone bonkers?!?

Tinks · March 3, 2014 7:38 am

Well that's interesting actually,regarding Mary Tudor's phantom pregnancy, because when someone mentioned that AGRA in canon related to an empty treasure box, I immediately wondered if Mary's pregnancy was real - sounds really far fetched but I've seen a real life crime story where a woman wore a false pregnancy tummy and convinced her partner she was pregnant!

Last edited by Tinks (March 3, 2014 7:39 am)

SusiGo · March 3, 2014 7:52 am

This is an interesting observation. I did not notice the hotel's name or remember the fact about Mary Tudor's phantom pregnancies but at one time or other I thought about the truth of the pregnancy, too. The good thing about it would be that it could solve the problem of how to deal with the baby in the plot.

Of course she would have to convince her husband who is a doctor that she is pregnant, provide false ultrasound images, etc. while they are definitely living together, that is until the 221B scene. Her pregnancy does not seem to show much at this point of time but then we do not see her naked.

The question, however, is what would be the reason behind this which I cannot see at the moment.

Ozymandias · March 3, 2014 7:54 am

I agree with you Tinks. Even if Mary stays, I don't think Moftiss would put a baby on the show. It's too complicated to deal with, and far from the spirit of Sherlock Holmes.

Last edited by Ozymandias (March 3, 2014 7:54 am)

Tinks · March 3, 2014 7:57 am

No I can't see a reason for it either, but it's definitely something that's occurred to me and I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility.
I also keep playing that airfield scene over in my mind and wondering if there's something Mycroft and John know that Sherlock doesn't - there was something odd about the way the scene played out, and I can't help thinking something else was going on there.

RavenMorganLeigh · March 3, 2014 8:08 am

Tinks wrote:
Well that's interesting actually,regarding Mary Tudor's phantom pregnancy, because when someone mentioned that AGRA in canon related to an empty treasure box, I immediately wondered if Mary's pregnancy was real - sounds really far fetched but I've seen a real life crime story where a woman wore a false pregnancy tummy and convinced her partner she was pregnant!

Oh wow. I'm almost ashamed that I missed that!

It could also be a false pregnancy-- in Canon, Mary dies. Suppose, as with Mary Tudor, the "pregnancy" is actually a life threatening tumor, and because she wants a child so badly, she beleives, like Mary Tudor, that it's real? That doesn't mean she might not fake an ultrasound; denial can be pretty powerful.

The other clue (?!?) Mary Tudor was also known as Bloody Mary. Hmmmmm.....

Ozymandias · March 3, 2014 8:16 am

I can't help myself think that it would be incredible if Moftiss really put deliberately all this details.

Willow · March 3, 2014 9:41 am

Gosh!

There is also an old Cockney song which comes to mind:

'I'm Enery the 8th, I am
'Enery the 8th I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door,
She'd been married 7 times before
And every one was an 'Enery
She wouldn't have a Willie or a Sam
I'm her 8th old man named 'Enery
'Enery the 8th I am!

Mattlocked · March 3, 2014 10:21 am

You all know that I love Moftiss, but in this case I believe it's simply a (nice) coincidence, as the "fake houses" are next to that hotel.....

Last edited by Mattlocked (March 3, 2014 10:21 am)

Willow · March 3, 2014 10:32 am

Tinks wrote:
No I can't see a reason for it either, but it's definitely something that's occurred to me and I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility.
I also keep playing that airfield scene over in my mind and wondering if there's something Mycroft and John know that Sherlock doesn't - there was something odd about the way the scene played out, and I can't help thinking something else was going on there.

I know what you mean about that scene; in my head canon it's wondering whether after the plane had taken off Mary would be handcuffed and taken to prison, or into the Protected Witness Scheme. 'Mycroft and John know something which Sherlock doesn't' is one of the ways that scene is less painful for me...

March 3, 2014 11:00 am

Mattlocked wrote:
You all know that I love Moftiss, but in this case I believe it's simply a (nice) coincidence, as the "fake houses" are next to that hotel.....

You probably know that the hotel Henry VIII is in fact real. 23 Leinster Gardens.
John is often quite ignorant, but I think it is very improbable that Mary could fake the pregnancy. After all Sherlock deduced it. So I think it is real.

Mattlocked · March 3, 2014 11:04 am

Yes, I know. It's next to the fake houses, which are also real. That is the reason why I think it's a coincidence.
AND the fact of Sherlock deducing the pregnancy, of course.

Tinks · March 3, 2014 11:17 am

Sherlock was off his game throughout this whole season, though, due to the readjustments he'd had to make on coming home to find his world had changed so much.
It's a point that was made over and over again - he got so much wrong and missed so much.
The reasons he gave for thinking Mary was pregnant could easily be explained by other causes.
Mary's reaction always intrigued me anyway - could be surprise and delight, could equally be no you're completely wrong, but hang on, I could make this work for me.
I just can't figure out at the moment what her motive would be.

Willow · March 3, 2014 11:31 am

Tinks wrote:
Sherlock was off his game throughout this whole season, though, due to the readjustments he'd had to make on coming home to find his world had changed so much.
It's a point that was made over and over again - he got so much wrong and missed so much.
The reasons he gave for thinking Mary was pregnant could easily be explained by other causes.
Mary's reaction always intrigued me anyway - could be surprise and delight, could equally be no you're completely wrong, but hang on, I could make this work for me.
I just can't figure out at the moment what her motive would be.

Well, the line:

'You can't go; I'm pregnant'

which Moffat uses at the beginning of HLV may be a starting point on what Mary's motives might be; she knows she has a lot of skeletons in the cupboard, and that she might be exposed by CAM, and she can take a fair bet that John and Sherlock would give a pregnant woman a lot more leeway...

March 3, 2014 11:54 am

For me it is primarily done to underline that John is addicted to danger. He is ready to leave his pregnant wife behind and wander off to play "being Sherlock".
There is even a line ´with an allusion to Sherlock's line "there is nothing wrong with me" from Hounds. "There is nothing the matter with me. Imagine I said that without shouting."

Willow · March 3, 2014 12:12 pm

Be wrote:
For me it is primarily done to underline that John is addicted to danger. He is ready to leave his pregnant wife behind and wander off to play "being Sherlock".
There is even a line ´with an allusion to Sherlock's line "there is nothing wrong with me" from Hounds. "There is nothing the matter with me. Imagine I said that without shouting."

But he's also addicted to Sherlock: his nightmare about Afghanistan changes into a flashback to Sherlock's first invitation, finishing with Sherlock smiling at him, and telling him that the game is on, which propels him out of bed to answer the banging on the door. As I have just noted elsewhere, he thinks it's Sherlock, and is disgruntled and disappointed when it's not...

March 3, 2014 12:52 pm

Willow wrote:
Be wrote:
For me it is primarily done to underline that John is addicted to danger. He is ready to leave his pregnant wife behind and wander off to play "being Sherlock".
There is even a line ´with an allusion to Sherlock's line "there is nothing wrong with me" from Hounds. "There is nothing the matter with me. Imagine I said that without shouting."
But he's also addicted to Sherlock: his nightmare about Afghanistan changes into a flashback to Sherlock's first invitation, finishing with Sherlock smiling at him, and telling him that the game is on, which propels him out of bed to answer the banging on the door. As I have just noted elsewhere, he thinks it's Sherlock, and is disgruntled and disappointed when it's not...

I agree. He is blowing smoke i.e. he wants to fool himself into believing that he wants a nice cosy family life. Wife, husband and a child. I also think that he expected to see Sherlock when he opened the door and was disappointed to see Kate.
He is not ready to do some introspection into his own personality.

lil · March 3, 2014 1:09 pm

Thats very amusing....almost everything else is faked isn't it...sherlocks faked death..Marys faked life ..faked affection..a faked case...fake wife..fake girlfriend..fake house..faked excuses...faked vault...fake Moriarty....
Is it Sherlock v Mary in the great fake off.

March 3, 2014 1:24 pm

lil wrote:
Thats very amusing....almost everything else is faked isn't it...sherlocks faked death..Marys faked life ..faked affection..a faked case...fake wife..fake girlfriend..fake house..faked excuses...faked vault...fake Moriarty....
Is it Sherlock v Mary in the great fake off.

If we walk along this line we might find out that the whole thing is a fake.
But wait... It's Sherlock Holmes fanfiction. It's supposed to be a lie to entertain us.
Nice. I really like it.
Someone is planting some doubt into our minds.

Last edited by Be (March 3, 2014 1:27 pm)

nakahara · March 3, 2014 1:31 pm

Those people lead dangerous lives. There′s no much room for sincerity in it.