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March 1, 2014 1:11 am  #1


"Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

Someone questioned on another thread whether Irene's "recreational scolding" involved sex. I thought this line to Sherlock was referring to sex, the idea was that he would beg for mercy because it would be so pleasurable it wouldl be painful (or exhausting). 

Because she was impressed with him at that moment, (or wanted him to think she was.) I didn't think she was literally threatening to hurt him.

And I thought the point of her blackmail was that she had compromising pictures of sexual situations?

I felt that one reason they had Irene say this to Sherlock is that female fans seem to have that reaction, either to Sherlock, or to Benedict.

Someone who posted the scene on Youtube commented that if John hadn't been in the room, Sherlock and Irene would have...that's why this episode is problematic for us Johnlockers.

Sherlock said, "I've never begged for mercy in my life." And not very long afterwards, begged John for cigarettes (twice.)

If Sherlock is attracted to Irene, even after she drugged and beat him (shouldn't that make him see her as an enemy?) than his own...tastes...must be pretty....out there?

 

 

March 3, 2014 5:00 am  #2


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Someone questioned on another thread whether Irene's "recreational scolding" involved sex. I thought this line to Sherlock was referring to sex, the idea was that he would beg for mercy because it would be so pleasurable it wouldl be painful (or exhausting). 

Because she was impressed with him at that moment, (or wanted him to think she was.) I didn't think she was literally threatening to hurt him.

And I thought the point of her blackmail was that she had compromising pictures of sexual situations?

I felt that one reason they had Irene say this to Sherlock is that female fans seem to have that reaction, either to Sherlock, or to Benedict.

Someone who posted the scene on Youtube commented that if John hadn't been in the room, Sherlock and Irene would have...that's why this episode is problematic for us Johnlockers.

Sherlock said, "I've never begged for mercy in my life." And not very long afterwards, begged John for cigarettes (twice.)

If Sherlock is attracted to Irene, even after she drugged and beat him (shouldn't that make him see her as an enemy?) than his own...tastes...must be pretty....out there?

 

Of course it's about sex. I think only johnlockers who refuse to see any scene except through the lens of a sherlock Watson love fest could see that.

Maybe people who have never flirted or been flirted with perhaps? High school kids? Sexually uninitiated?

But it's a sexually charged scene-just watch John in it lol.

Idk that the never beg thing really shows anything other than a man refusing to be domineered by a woman. He's standing up t her advances. Whether he wants to give in or not he's not going to let her just say she'll make him beg for mercy. He's Sherlock, he's not going to let anyone get the better of him - especially verbally!


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March 4, 2014 4:04 am  #3


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

Wiggins wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Someone questioned on another thread whether Irene's "recreational scolding" involved sex. I thought this line to Sherlock was referring to sex, the idea was that he would beg for mercy because it would be so pleasurable it wouldl be painful (or exhausting). 

Because she was impressed with him at that moment, (or wanted him to think she was.) I didn't think she was literally threatening to hurt him.

And I thought the point of her blackmail was that she had compromising pictures of sexual situations?

I felt that one reason they had Irene say this to Sherlock is that female fans seem to have that reaction, either to Sherlock, or to Benedict.

Someone who posted the scene on Youtube commented that if John hadn't been in the room, Sherlock and Irene would have...that's why this episode is problematic for us Johnlockers.

Sherlock said, "I've never begged for mercy in my life." And not very long afterwards, begged John for cigarettes (twice.)

If Sherlock is attracted to Irene, even after she drugged and beat him (shouldn't that make him see her as an enemy?) than his own...tastes...must be pretty....out there?

 

Of course it's about sex. I think only johnlockers who refuse to see any scene except through the lens of a sherlock Watson love fest could see that.

Maybe people who have never flirted or been flirted with perhaps? High school kids? Sexually uninitiated?

But it's a sexually charged scene-just watch John in it lol. 

Yes, I get what "beg for mercy" refers to. I've actually read that expression, something liked, "screwed him until he begged for mercy" in a different story. Referring to good sex. It's just that, given Irene's particular...varations...and what she actually ended up doing to Sherlock....the object of her interest... might be begging for mercy from her for a different reason.

Yeah, the Sherlock/Irene thing is certainly problematic for us Johnlock-ers. 

Their interaction is minimal in canon, and she's in love with someone else altogether...but just about every adaptation ships them.

     Thread Starter
 

March 4, 2014 7:10 am  #4


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

Wiggins wrote:

Idk that the never beg thing really shows anything other than a man refusing to be domineered by a woman. He's standing up to her advances. Whether he wants to give in or not he's not going to let her just say she'll make him beg for mercy. He's Sherlock, he's not going to let anyone get the better of him - especially verbally!

Yep. And that´s also why it doesn´t make any difference if John was there or not (I don´t even think he realized he was still present in that moment ^^), he wouldn´t let her get her way like that. Nothing to fear for the Johnlockers here..^^
 

 

March 4, 2014 11:25 am  #5


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I think it may be Irene's way of saying "Wow you're clever". This is how she shows emotions. 

I did a bit of 'field research' in dominatrixes, doms and subs a while ago... it's especially important for most Dominatrixes not to show emotion or what they actually feel... they need to be in total control and one way to do that is to fluster their sub. They need to be in their head.

She was well informed of Sherlock's innocence and that was what she used to put him under her boot. To be 'stronger' than him and I bet she hoped being sexual with him would take away his strongest asset. His sexy brain.


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March 5, 2014 12:38 am  #6


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

I think it may be Irene's way of saying "Wow you're clever". This is how she shows emotions. 

I did a bit of 'field research' in dominatrixes, doms and subs a while ago... it's especially important for most Dominatrixes not to show emotion or what they actually feel... they need to be in total control and one way to do that is to fluster their sub. They need to be in their head.

She was well informed of Sherlock's innocence and that was what she used to put him under her boot. To be 'stronger' than him and I bet she hoped being sexual with him would take away his strongest asset. His sexy brain.

...which Sherlock would probably see as "domination" in the bad sense

This might explain why Irene didn't try her tricks on John (who, on the surface would seem more likely to be distracted by sex)...he's not as brilliant as Sherlock in some ways, but about sex, he's not as innocent, so he's less likely to go in for this particular brand of manipulation? Although he's more ok with not being in control in some situations...in his relationship with Sherlock, at least in their detective work, he's ok with being the sidekick, or follower.

(Many Johnlock fics make Watson more "in charge" in their private life, not in the "dom" sense, necessarily, but just that he kind of leads Holmes because he's more experienced there.)

But in a way, the "beg for mercy" comment was similar to "she finds him amazing so she's throwing herself at him" in a more traditional sense.

If they "had dinner" after he saved her, doesn't that suggest a different dynamic...if she's, well, "thanking" him...not that she'd be "submissive" exactly but it would be kind of a traditional "hero rewarded by rescued damsel."
 

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (March 6, 2014 2:13 am)

     Thread Starter
 

March 15, 2014 6:18 pm  #7


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

But would sherlock and irene actually have sex if john wasn't there? It to me doesn't seem like the sort of thing sherlock would do. Mainly because he is so uptight with emotions and about showing his emotions to people, and would irene let her heart rule her head if she really did love him and be that weak?


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March 15, 2014 7:48 pm  #8


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

anniea wrote:

But would sherlock and irene actually have sex if john wasn't there? It to me doesn't seem like the sort of thing sherlock would do. Mainly because he is so uptight with emotions and about showing his emotions to people, and would irene let her heart rule her head if she really did love him and be that weak?

Sex isn't always about emotions. I could see Sherlock being curious and intrigued leading to wanting to 'experiment' with Irene. lol I don't think they would jump straight at it though if John wasn't there to chaperone.
I don't think Irene  is in love with Sherlock. There is some attraction there, chemistry, maybe even fascination but I wouldn't call that love.

 

March 15, 2014 9:06 pm  #9


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

belis wrote:

anniea wrote:

But would sherlock and irene actually have sex if john wasn't there? It to me doesn't seem like the sort of thing sherlock would do. Mainly because he is so uptight with emotions and about showing his emotions to people, and would irene let her heart rule her head if she really did love him and be that weak?

Sex isn't always about emotions. I could see Sherlock being curious and intrigued leading to wanting to 'experiment' with Irene. lol I don't think they would jump straight at it though if John wasn't there to chaperone.
I don't think Irene  is in love with Sherlock. There is some attraction there, chemistry, maybe even fascination but I wouldn't call that love.

Neither would I; the question of what constitutes love is something Moftiss seem fascinated by...
 

 

March 22, 2014 1:35 am  #10


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I don't think they would do that, either. But I think it's a little arbitrary to say no love existing between them.
There are too many kinds of people, especially Sherlock-Irene type, they would never express themselves in normal way.
But of course I don't mean that they're definitely in love with each other. There's still a possibility, here.


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June 30, 2014 6:46 pm  #11


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I don't know, and it intrigues me.  I think it was definitely sexual, but I thought there was a strong BDSM element, and I thought that was what she was referring to. I thought she'd already established for herself that he had a masochistic streak.   Right at the beginning she asks if he wants her to slap his face.   She believes that talking about slapping him, beating him (how she wants him to remember her) and making him beg for mercy will push his buttons.   She's meant to be so good at knowing what men like: surely she's onto something?  And his pause and eye contact when she says it also makes it look like she's on the right track. 

Later, he switches things around, and makes her beg, in a non-sexual situation.  (I say non-sexual, but I definitely see a sexual charge in that scene).   They both use humiliation as part of the game, and maybe it's just about SM being some sort of metaphor for their power play, rather than an indication of what Sherlock "likes". 

To be honest, I suspect that we, the audience, may be being played with a bit.  The idea of Sherlock having hidden dark desires is pretty hot, I have to say, but it's easy enough to throw that in there for titillation without ever resolving it for us! 

 

July 4, 2014 2:30 am  #12


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I know nothing about the whole BDSM thing...but some things I read say it's not entirely, or even primarily, about sex. In the media (and Irene is not the first dominatrix ever to be seen on TV, but usually they are murder victims or suspects), it's always coyly hinted that it's a form of kinky sex. 

I never saw Sherlock as wanting to be dominated...I was even surprised when I started reading Holmes/Watson fic from canon and Watson "took charge" in "private" matters (in a very non-BDSM way, just in the sense that he was more experienced). Because in canon, in other matters, it's clear that Holmes leads and Watson follows, most of the time.

I guess I always thought that if Sherlock Holmes were going to get involved with anyone, they would have to be either a very trusted friend or someone who had kind of a groupie mentality. But this Sherlock doesn't seem as independent in other areas of life...he seems like Mycroft controls a lot of what he does, for one thing.

And he was tortured in Serbia and doesn't seem to be suffering much from it.

 

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July 4, 2014 7:13 am  #13


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I would say that although BDSM often doesn't involve sex, that the drive is sexual, or something very close to sexual.  (I don't actually know the "chemistry"). 

I think a desire to be submissive or dominant (or both!) is again, a sort of sexual drive, rather than something which reflects "real life" and work.   A normally dominant leader might love to submit.  (Many of Irene's clients might be powerful people).   And masochism and sadism are usually related, but not always.  It's possible to be masochist without being submissive, and vice versa. 

To complicate matters further, being a dominatrix is Irene's job, and so isn't necessarily any reflection on her orientation (she's providing a service, which in my opinion is one which includes acting). 

I think one thing that is intriguing about BDSM is that it can be so exciting!  It can involve playing with "dangerous" things: fear, humiliation, pain, exposure, vulnerability, control, etc. and getting a thrill from them, and also involving extremes of sensation.  I can see this aspect being appealing to somebody like Sherlock who craves excitement (although I still think it's more of an orientation - if you don't already have an inbuilt craving for being beaten, then you're probably not going to enjoy it in the same way if you do it just for the "excitement"). 

I'm still working my way through the episodes and trying to spread them out as much as I can, so I haven't seen Sherlock's reaction to the torture.  Obviously, real life torture is completely different to consensual BDSM.  Do you mean that a masochistic streak might make somebody better able to withstand torture?  I honestly don't know.   What you said reminds me of the film Lawrence of Arabia, which involves Lawrence being beaten - earlier in the film there's a scene where he shows his ability to withstand pain, and says that the trick is not minding that it hurts.   I believe Lawrence was known to be a masochist, and that was what the film was hinting at. 

I definitely can see Sherlock as a suppressed masochist.  That's partly because I don't think Irene would "use" that aspect if she didn't think it was part of his sexuality.  But also because I can see him being drawn to something more dark and dangerous than sex, and craving more extreme sensations (better than the drugs http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
). But it does seem that some things are left open ended so that we see what we want to see

 

July 4, 2014 7:22 am  #14


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

And he was tortured in Serbia and doesn't seem to be suffering much from it.

 

This is not quite the case. When we seem him in Mycroft's office being shaved he winces when sitting up which clearly indicates that he is still in pain from the torture. 


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July 4, 2014 11:18 am  #15


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

And he complains about being not helped by Mycroft earlier.

Last edited by Harriet (July 4, 2014 2:02 pm)


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July 4, 2014 6:34 pm  #16


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

Harriet wrote:

And he complains about being not helped by Mycroft earlier.

We don't see him having nightmares or something like we see John doing with regards to the war. 

But another reason I have trouble with the whole Sherlock/Irene thing is, part of Sherlock's work is being targeted by enemies who at least try to capture him, tie him up, etc. And it's NO game. It's a bit hard to believe he would voluntarily submit to bondage and such "in fun." Seems like it should be traumatic. Unless it's an example of how he doesn't feel the things the way most people do. 

Not that he doesn't HAVE any emotions, but that they operate and manifest differently.

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July 4, 2014 10:20 pm  #17


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

But in real life, people are assaulted and carry on wanting consensual SM if that's what they wanted beforehand.  It's a bit like saying that people who have been sexually assaulted wouldn't ever have consensual sex.  (And of course some might be so traumatised that they might not, but it's not a given).  If anything, I'd see him continuing to have that interest (if he'd had it before) as normal and healthy, rather than emotionally different. There's just such a world of difference between non-consensual and consensual.

But I haven't got to that part of the series yet (still trying desparately to savour each episode for an extended period) so what do I know? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
  I'm just generalising. 

 

July 9, 2014 10:00 pm  #18


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

Liberty wrote:

But in real life, people are assaulted and carry on wanting consensual SM if that's what they wanted beforehand.  It's a bit like saying that people who have been sexually assaulted wouldn't ever have consensual sex.  (And of course some might be so traumatised that they might not, but it's not a given).  If anything, I'd see him continuing to have that interest (if he'd had it before) as normal and healthy, rather than emotionally different. There's just such a world of difference between non-consensual and consensual.

But I haven't got to that part of the series yet (still trying desparately to savour each episode for an extended period) so what do I know? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
  I'm just generalising. 

That's a good point about the consent...I saw a piece of another crime show ("Law and Order" or some such) where someone who dealt in those kind of practices had been murdered, and they investigated her "establishment." And I remember there was something about how the "clients" who were "subs" had the "true power" because they were allowed to end the proceedings at any time just by saying so...not sure that was true with Irene.

It is possible to infer that Sherlock doesn't mind being on the receiving end of all of that, even in his work...but the thing I keep coming back to is, Sherlock absolutely HATED CAM "for preying on people who are different." Shouldn't he then have felt a little more negatively towards Irene for exploiting people's kinks and then embarassing them? Sherlock may not come off as moralistic most of the time, but in HLV he was shown as having a big moral objection to blackmail.

(Which is consistent with the Doyle Milverton story, by the way. But there it's not inconsistent for him to admire Irene, because she is definitely NOT engaged in the same kinds of doings as Milverton.)

I know people have speculated about whether Irene and Sherlock "had dinner" after he saved her. I saw a comment on the rescue scene that Irene's smile in that scene is kind of "Sigh! Sherlock came to save me." So I wonder if that rescue would change their dynamic at all...she would still be "into" him, but in a much more traditionally seductive "I want to sleep with you because you're amazing and you rescued me" way.

When she appears in Sherlock's mind in TSoT, she does seem gentler. Or, if you think the rescue didn't really happen, maybe it's Sherlock's fantasy for her to become gentler? (I can't think of a better word.)

     Thread Starter
 

July 10, 2014 7:12 am  #19


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

I would say that in this situation (professional dominatrix), the subs do have the power as they're the ones wielding the money.  She has to provide the service they want, or they'd withdraw their custom.  In Irene's case she emphasises that her forte is knowing what people want, so it seems as if it's the subs' desires which dictate what happens. So any suggestions Irene makes to Sherlock in that context are tailored to what she thinks is his kinks are, rather than what her own kinks are. 

(I do wish that when the media showed this aspect of sexuality, they would let us see a bit more of women who genuinely get off on it rather than always women who are paid to pretend they do.  But that's another issue!)

I haven't read the Milverton story yet (looking forward to it), or seen the episode.    But Irene claimed that what she was doing wasn't blackmail, but protection.   I don't completely agree, but I suppose her actions were more similar to espionage - but for protection purposes.  She could have worked by seducing clients, which would have been just as underhand.   I do think it's unethical to provide a paid service, and use it in the way she did - but then it seems that people were voluntarily giving her information to show off.   Anyway, I didn't get the impression that Sherlock hated her for it.  He seemed to buy the protection aspect. 

I did read a good fanfic where Irene and Sherlock got it together after the rescue.  I prefer to think that they didn't.   But I think this whole episode completely plays with our sexual fantasies and desires.    If you want to imagine that they "had dinner" it can easily fit with what we're given.  If you want to think about a straight couple, a male couple (all the Johnlock hints), a female couple, a dominant woman, a submissive woman (the royal), a dominant man (honestly, Sherlock in the  "I took your pulse" scene - be still my heart!), a submissive man - it's all there, for the audience to expand on.   I'm well aware that they are playing with our desires as surely as Irene plays with her clients and that what we see is what we want to see, to some extent. 

Last edited by Liberty (July 10, 2014 7:14 am)

 

July 10, 2014 4:07 pm  #20


Re: "Till you beg for mercy, twice..."

What about for those of us who have no desires, or particularly with Irene?!
She certainly had a thing for Sherlock and I hav to accept that Sherlock was intrigued by her...but I do hope they ddin't get up to anything in Karachi.


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