BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 9:29 am

I would actually put it a bit earlier. Her behaviour and attitude has completely changed by the beginning of HLV. Maybe it changed during the wedding? The reading of the telegraphs? The deduction of the pregnancy? Lots of reasons to feel threatened and cornered. During HLV Sherlock and Mary are no friends and it will be tough to convince me otherwise.

Last edited by mrshouse (June 16, 2015 9:30 am)

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 9:35 am

As you may know, I never liked the napkin scene. Not that Mary seems afraid in that, quite the contrary - she is patronising towards Sherlock and plays them both IMO. And as for the scene in front of Sholto's bedroom: when first viewing it, i.e. before I knew HLV, I did not like it. It felt forced to me, I wanted to have the boys investigating, not a trio.

SolarSystem · June 16, 2015 9:37 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Whatever you wanna call it, "intermediary", "enabler", someone "trying to fix this new picture" - I would have prefered to have Sherlock and John come to terms with the situation on their own. In my opinion Mary had an agenda from the very start, so she didn't 'help' them to overcome their difficulties because she is such a nice person, but because she had a specific selfish reason to do so.
What possible reason could Mary have for wanting John to get back with Sherlock? Surely it would be better for her to have him out of the way?

And what do you mean by "have him out of the way"? Killing him?
No, I think she knows that sometimes it's better to make someone a friend and trust you instead of having someone as an enemy.

Harriet · June 16, 2015 10:01 am

SusiGo wrote:
... And the moustache thing may be played for fun but it is another proof that Mary does not tell him the truth while people like Sherlock and Mrs Hudson who truly care for him do.

Brilliant observation, Susi!

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:10 am

mrshouse wrote:
During HLV Sherlock and Mary are no friends and it will be tough to convince me otherwise.

In the beginning of HLV, Sherlock said that " Mary and him" think John gained seven pounds, so they're in touch and friendly talking, no?
You can be convinced by your assumptions, it's part of the game to make some. I just point out that there's is no actual instance in the show to support them.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 10:16 am

I would not say that. We get this:

OHN: Look, is it Sherlock Holmes you want? Because I’ve not seen him in ages.
MARY: About a month.
KATE: Who’s Sherlock Holmes?
MARY (looking at John): See? That does happen.

Remember, this happens after they have not seen Sherlock for a month. So why this snappy behaviour? We get no explanation but in the whole of HLV there is not a single moment in which we see the Mary from before. And this is even before Sherlock discovers her in Magnussen's bedroom and she turns back into a killer.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:16 am

Harriet wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
... And the moustache thing may be played for fun but it is another proof that Mary does not tell him the truth while people like Sherlock and Mrs Hudson who truly care for him do.
Brilliant observation, Susi!

Well, we also can assume that maybe Mary thinks a physical transformation can help his grieving process, so she's OK with the moustache even she doesn't like it.
As long as we don't know anything more, there's always different ways to see things.

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 10:19 am

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
During HLV Sherlock and Mary are no friends and it will be tough to convince me otherwise.
In the beginning of HLV, Sherlock said that " Mary and him" think John gained seven pounds, so they're in touch and friendly talking, no?
You can be convinced by your assumptions, it's part of the game to make some. I just point out that there's is no actual instance in the show to support them.

I wanted to reply with the excact scene that Susi mentioned in her post.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:31 am

SusiGo wrote:
I would not say that. We get this:

OHN: Look, is it Sherlock Holmes you want? Because I’ve not seen him in ages.
MARY: About a month.
KATE: Who’s Sherlock Holmes?
MARY (looking at John): See? That does happen.

To me, it's more a hint that Watson is bored with suburban life and Mary realises it, but, yes, you can read it differently. Yet, they're no indication she feels threatened.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 10:34 am)

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 10:36 am

I'm not sure. We get dother hints that John is bored, we have the dream of the battlefield, we have John being in a snarky mood and being a sort of mirror of Sherlock, we have Wiggins deduction of the readily packed bag. Those are hints towards John being bored.
The above mentioned exchange is spot on John missing his friend, exaggerating because it feels like it, his wife being annoyed about it.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 10:37 am

Mrshouse: Well, being a wife I would feel threatened by someone who was able to provide my husband with things he is missing in his life with me. Speculation, no proof, but still.

NatureNo: The funny thing is that in the very moment she obviously feels threatened, i.e. in Magnussen's bedroom, Sherlock is everything but threatening. But have been over this many times.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 10:38 am)

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 10:40 am

The "I'm not sure" was a reply to Nature's reading of the scene being a hint towards John being bored and Mary realizing it.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 10:49 am

Okey-dokey.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:49 am

Well, I guess she feels threatened in her life lie. Even if Sherlock is offering his help with the Magnussen problem, she feels threatened that her husband learned she lied to him.
I'm not discussing if it's good or bad, if she's right or wrong. Obviously, in real life, shooting someone is only acceptable when there is a immediate danger.
But, in the show, she did what she did ,and the show is not a reflection on ethics.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:53 am

SusiGo wrote:
Mrshouse: Well, being a wife I would feel threatened by someone who was able to provide my husband with things he is missing in his life with me. Speculation, no proof, but still.

Well, being a wife too, I don't...I'm absolutly OK with the idea that other people can provide my husband something I can't/ don't want to provide him. And I'm quite sure he's OK with the idea that I have friends with whom I share activities he can't/ don't want to share with me...

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 11:00 am

If I knew that my husband was lying next to me in bed dreaming of that said person and the things he has to offer … which of course Mary does not know but she realises that John is missing Sherlock only four weeks after the wedding and reacts not well to it. And moreoever we, the audience, know about the dream and can connect the dots.

Sherlock Holmes · June 16, 2015 11:02 am

It would have been so much easier if she'd just accepted Sherlock's offer of help at Magnussen's office. She could have just knocked Magnussen out, and then been like "OK, Sherlock. This is what he's got on me. Can you help?" ><

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 11:08 am

Yes. But then it the scene have been less dramatic and it would be more difficult to write her out of the show later on because the audience would have liked her better. At least this is what I hope for. And I trust in Moftiss saying that it is the Sherlock and John show.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 11:10 am)

lil · June 16, 2015 11:17 am

TY for the article link that restarted this Mary conversation Susi , it rang quite true with me.I had posted months ago that something about the support that the Mary John relationship seemed to have after HLV in society and the fandom worried me but couldn't quite reason out why.
There seems to be a sort of make your life with and about the person you have sex with thing going on in series three , and not much importance on other things like honesty, loyalty, trust etc . In modern life , wives and lovers come and go but best friends , they are forever.
So maybe societies idea that your wife or husband should always come first is being questioned and that way too much importance is given to sex which nowadays is cheap.
Of course the baby does complicate things at the end.
I do worry though that the writers don't quite realise what they have done in the way the tumbl comment points out, but I hope so.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 11:29 am

Thanks for your thoughts, lil, very interesting. And it gave me another idea: Most heterosexual relationships on the show either do not work or end sadly:

- John and his various girlfriends
- John and Mary
- Mary and David
- Mrs Hudson and her late husband
- the cabbie who does not live with his family
- Barry Berwick who killed his girlfriend with a knife
- Andy being in love with Soo Lin who gets killed
- all of Molly's attempts at a relationship
(and I think there are more)

In the show the only heterosexual "traditional" marriage/relationship we get that seems to be happy and long-standing is the one between Sherlock's parents (and many people have pointed out the similarities between Mr Holmes and John and Mrs Holmes and Sherlock).

So I think there is a pattern and I trust the writers that they will not do an about-face and use John's marriage of all things to change this pattern.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 11:55 am)