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June 15, 2015 9:16 pm  #1941


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

She pushes him in that scene, to "go see him again". And she pushes him to get Sherlock on a case again, because Sherlock is scared their marriage will ruin the friendsip.


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June 15, 2015 9:18 pm  #1942


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

'I'll talk to him", "I like him", " you're gonna see him after work, mmm" You can't say she tries to dissuade John from seeing him.

 

June 15, 2015 9:21 pm  #1943


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

First of all, this is what she says:

MARY: Are you gonna see him again?
JOHN: No – I’m going to work.
MARY: Oh. And after work, are you gonna see him again?

Not more, not less. 

And as for the "I like him." There are people who criticise this very sentence. Because John is hurt and angry and instead of comforting him, being on his side, from the beginning she sides with Sherlock. "He needed a confidante" (other than you). And then "I like him". It is at the least ambiguous. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
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June 15, 2015 9:23 pm  #1944


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:

'I'll talk to him", "I like him", " you're gonna see him after work, mmm" You can't say she tries to dissuade John from seeing him.

Exactly.

I do agree about her in the reunion scene, though. She wasn't very supportive towards John. 


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

June 15, 2015 9:29 pm  #1945


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

People may criticise it or not. What she said  is what she said, and it's the opposite of a disuasion from seing him .And if she didn't want her husband to see his friend, she wouldn't remind him, in the morning, that he will.

 

June 15, 2015 9:34 pm  #1946


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Of course she does not dissuade John. I never said so. I said that she sides with Sherlock and tries to create an understanding at John's cost. And that we do not see her actively persuading John to see Sherlock. Which is not necessary anway because if they are such good friends(or something else entirely) they do not need Mary as an intermediary. It does not sit well with me. Never did, never will. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
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June 15, 2015 9:36 pm  #1947


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I do believe we see her actively persuading John to see Sherlock, so I guess we are interpreting the scenes very differently.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

June 15, 2015 9:40 pm  #1948


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Well, she's not an intermediary, she's a  piece of a new picture and what I see in the empty hearse is Mary trying to fix this new picture at best. 

 

June 15, 2015 9:48 pm  #1949


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

No, she's not an intermediary. She is more of an enabler for John.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

June 16, 2015 4:14 am  #1950


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Whatever you wanna call it, "intermediary", "enabler", someone "trying to fix this new picture" - I would have prefered to have Sherlock and John come to terms with the situation on their own. In my opinion Mary had an agenda from the very start, so she didn't 'help' them to overcome their difficulties because she is such a nice person, but because she had a specific selfish reason to do so.


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"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 16, 2015 6:17 am  #1951


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Exactly. John really, really does not need help but has to come to terms with it on his own. And least of all does he need a girlfriend who does not actually support him. And the moustache thing may be played for fun but it is another proof that Mary does not tell him the truth while people like Sherlock and Mrs Hudson who truly care for him do. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 6:59 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

June 16, 2015 7:12 am  #1952


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

How could she have an agenda ?  As far as we know, She thought Holmes was dead?

 

June 16, 2015 7:32 am  #1953


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

She's a trained assassin, secret agent, whatever you wanna call it. The moment Sherlock walks in she knows what's at stake for her and acts accordingly. She certainly knows how to deal with such surprises.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 16, 2015 7:52 am  #1954


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

So, you think she planned to get rid of Holmes as soon as she saw him? Nothing indicates such a thing in the show.
what we know is she's ready to kill him as soon as he's aware she lied to Watson, but not before.

 

June 16, 2015 8:22 am  #1955


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

But consider that it's most weird: we've talked about it already, but a trained ex-assasin, meeting Sherlock Holmes' best friend (both repeatedly torn through the mills of yellow press, sure she will have read some articles at least around TRF), when he is accidentally on his own, the most vulnerable. It is not very likely that she never thinks about that Sherlock might deduce her the second she knows who he is in the restaurant. The only way I can explain this is that not only the writers keep telling us what a clever person she is, but that she thinks so herself, and stretches her life lie not only to John but to his best friend as well and is certain to pull through with it.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

June 16, 2015 8:43 am  #1956


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:

So, you think she planned to get rid of Holmes as soon as she saw him? Nothing indicates such a thing in the show.

And I never said she did, where do you get that from?
All I'm saying is that when Sherlock appeared she certainly knew immediately that she would have to take precautions. In TEH that means that she is trying to be as nice as possible in order to win Sherlock's trust. Because if Sherlock trusts her, he probaby won't investigate into her past. And we see that it works almost immediately, because even though he deduces her to be a "liar" he doesn't pay any attention to it because hey, she's nice and supportive...!
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 16, 2015 8:50 am  #1957


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

In TEH that means that she is trying to be as nice as possible in order to win Sherlock's trust. Because if Sherlock trusts her, he probaby won't investigate into her past. And we see that it works almost immediately, because even though he deduces her to be a "liar" he doesn't pay any attention to it because hey, she's nice and supportive...!
 

And now someone can say that she was nice and supportive because it is her character.

But think of how different she suddenly behaves at the beginning of HLV. To me, it always seems like she is not as nice as she appeared to be in TEH and TSoT.


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June 16, 2015 8:52 am  #1958


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

SolarSystem wrote:

Whatever you wanna call it, "intermediary", "enabler", someone "trying to fix this new picture" - I would have prefered to have Sherlock and John come to terms with the situation on their own. In my opinion Mary had an agenda from the very start, so she didn't 'help' them to overcome their difficulties because she is such a nice person, but because she had a specific selfish reason to do so.

What possible reason could Mary have for wanting John to get back with Sherlock? Surely it would be better for her to have him out of the way?


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June 16, 2015 8:53 am  #1959


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

And there is of course another possibility - that she knows much more than she lets on, that she has in some way been involved with Moriarty (who likes to employ snipers). Because it is a very big coincidence that during Sherlock's absence John meets the sweet assassin turned nurse who coindicentally works in his surgery and seems to be the only person able to comfort him. And to me it would be a stretch of the imagination to believe that she does not view Sherlock as a potential threat, Sherlock, who is famous for his brilliant deductions.

So what does she do? She is a clever woman and realises at once how insecure Sherlock is when meeting John again, that he is vulnerable because of his feelings. So she tries to win him over. She shows sympathy for his plans (need of a confidante) and promises to bring round John. And Sherlock, being compromised by his emotions, walks into the trap. This is the man who has a thick dossier on John and yet he does not do any research about Mary. 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 8:54 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

June 16, 2015 9:19 am  #1960


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

If you start making a list of what would me more likely that what actually happens in the show, you're not finished.
So, yes, I guess she streches her lie to Holmes to, as she does to everyone. But, sticking to the facts, there's no hint that she feels threatened by Holmes until she meets him in Magnussen's office.

 

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