BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 7:54 pm

Yay....

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 7:56 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Yes, Vhanja, that might be in it. I'm one of the fans who rather would like to see Sherlock happy in the end than to see him vanishing into even deeper Orcus for what does not feel right.

Add me to that list! :-)

Liberty · June 15, 2015 7:58 pm

I don't think we are inclined to forgive Mary as much as is claimed, though. I see posts looking at her motivations (which are interesting to consider), but not justifying them. Does we really think it was OK that she shot Sherlock and threatened him? I think we can understand why she did it, but that's not the same as forgiving.

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 8:03 pm

This might turn slightly philosophical, but the idea of forgiveness what something we had in my master's degree, so (ahem...) forgive me:

Forgiveness does not mean that you thinkt he action that was done was ok by any means. Forgiveness does not justify the action nor does it remove the responsibility from the person comitting the action. Forgivess has more to do with the victim - not letting the unjust action rule the emotions of the victim anymore. It's about moving on for the victim, not justifying or trivializing the action that was done.

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 8:03 pm

Hm, are you sure about that? I'm torn. I would be perfectly at ease if I could see her as a great and charismatic villain, that would be cool! But I feel forced to react positively on the character. That's where it gets difficult.
Edit: this is an answer to Liberty's post

Last edited by mrshouse (June 15, 2015 8:05 pm)

Harriet · June 15, 2015 8:09 pm

Vhanja wrote:
This might turn slightly philosophical, but the idea of forgiveness what something we had in my master's degree, so (ahem...) forgive me:

Forgiveness does not mean that you thinkt he action that was done was ok by any means. Forgiveness does not justify the action nor does it remove the responsibility from the person comitting the action. Forgivess has more to do with the victim - not letting the unjust action rule the emotions of the victim anymore. It's about moving on for the victim, not justifying or trivializing the action that was done.

Well, this is one possible definition of forgiveness. And there are other options for a victim to move on with life without forgiving. There are many therapist who recommend victims not to focus on forgiving for their own sake.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 8:15 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Hm, are you sure about that? I'm torn. I would be perfectly at ease if I could see her as a great and charismatic villain, that would be cool! But I feel forced to react positively on the character. That's where it gets difficult.
Edit: this is an answer to Liberty's post

Agreed.

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 8:16 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I like her as a character, always have. She surprised me with her support of John being with Sherlock, and I will always love her for that fact. And when Sherlock forgave her for shooting her, so did I. When John wanted to give her a second chance, so did I.

However, despite I'm being one of the few on this forum who honestly like her, I will cheer the day she is out of the picture. The only tear I will shed when (if?) she dies is for John receiving another blow (the poor man can never get a break). Because no one should come between Sherlock and John, and make John live anywhere else than 221B.

There's an interesting question: if we consider Holmes and Watson to be one of the most perfect relationships in fiction- why is Mary needed for support at all during the difficult first days? I would have wished so much for the boys to sort out their problems on their own. Would have been hard enough. But that was one of the things I actually found annoying. Holmes and Watson don't need someone to moderate.

Sherlock Holmes · June 15, 2015 8:17 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I keep wondering... if Mary was male and John was female, would we be so forgiving?

Marvin lies to Johanna from the time he meets her about his past as a paid assassin. He passes himself off as a good man, a respectable man who wants to settle down and have kids and suburbian life. He comforts Johanna through grieiving for her best friend, who committed suicide two years before.

Then, said friend (Sherlock) comes back. Sherlock is a threat. And when being caught red-handed by Sherlock, Marvin shoots and nearly kills Sherlock. Johanna finally finds this out-- same scenario, blah, blah, blah.

Now: Do we expect Johanna to just up and forgive Marvin? To take Marvin back, after finding out all that he has done?

I think we'd all be telling Johanna to run screaming!

We'd be saying that Marvin was a dangerous, emotionally abusive and controlling partner, and that Johanna should get out whilst she still could and not look back.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 8:20 pm

I keep feeling that we are being asked (by the narrative on the show) and by (some) in the fandom-- to just accept that John and Sherlock have forgiven her, so we should , too. That all that Mary has done should be considered water under the bridge-- the problem for me is that there was nothing in the narrative (on the show) to make me beleive that (a) Mary deserved such a maganimous concession and forgivness-- ('cos, that's really huge) and (b) or that she's truly changed her ways-- I mean, if her marraige is threatened, or somone else finds out about her past, is she going to try to kill them, too? Arrrrrrghhh!!! Quandaries and conundrums!!! :-D

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 8:22 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I keep feeling that we are being asked (by the narrative on the show) and by (some) in the fandom-- to just accept that John and Sherlock have forgiven her, so we should , too. That all that Mary has done should be considered water under the bridge-- the problem for me is that there was nothing in the narrative (on the show) to make me beleive that (a) Mary deserved such a maganimous concession and forgivness-- ('cos, that's really huge) and (b) or that she's truly changed her ways-- I mean, if her marraige is threatened, or somone else finds out about her past, is she going to try to kill them, too? Arrrrrrghhh!!! Quandaries and conundrums!!! :-D

Agree wholeheartedly. And be honest, what else would keep us alive during hiatus?

NatureNoHumansNo · June 15, 2015 8:28 pm

I must say I'm astonished by what I've read today.
1/ there's no indication in the show that Mary shot Sherlock out of panick...or hormones .... there's onlyindication that she jonly calculated the best way to react with the few seconds she had left (knock Milverton out, shoot Holmes, leave, call the ambulance)
2/ I don't see the point to ...ahem.. forgive... a fictionnal character.
you may understand or wonder where her actions will lead the plot, you may like the character or not, but forgive???

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 8:28 pm

mrshouse wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I keep feeling that we are being asked (by the narrative on the show) and by (some) in the fandom-- to just accept that John and Sherlock have forgiven her, so we should , too. That all that Mary has done should be considered water under the bridge-- the problem for me is that there was nothing in the narrative (on the show) to make me beleive that (a) Mary deserved such a maganimous concession and forgivness-- ('cos, that's really huge) and (b) or that she's truly changed her ways-- I mean, if her marraige is threatened, or somone else finds out about her past, is she going to try to kill them, too? Arrrrrrghhh!!! Quandaries and conundrums!!! :-D
Agree wholeheartedly. And be honest, what else would keep us alive during hiatus?

RIGHT?!?!?

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 8:31 pm

mrshouse wrote:

There's an interesting question: if we consider Holmes and Watson to be one of the most perfect relationships in fiction- why is Mary needed for support at all during the difficult first days? I would have wished so much for the boys to sort out their problems on their own. Would have been hard enough. But that was one of the things I actually found annoying. Holmes and Watson don't need someone to moderate.

Well, John did get married in canon. And it made an excellent opportunity for Sherlock's growth. And for John to move on after Sherlock "died".

Last edited by Vhanja (June 15, 2015 8:31 pm)

SolarSystem · June 15, 2015 8:35 pm

mrshouse wrote:
There's an interesting question: if we consider Holmes and Watson to be one of the most perfect relationships in fiction- why is Mary needed for support at all during the difficult first days? I would have wished so much for the boys to sort out their problems on their own. Would have been hard enough. But that was one of the things I actually found annoying. Holmes and Watson don't need someone to moderate.

I agree with you from the bottom of my heart. I was so looking forward to Sherlock and John meeting again for the first time after those two years which must have been so awful for both of them. And then... Mary was there. And it felt so wrong to me that those first moments weren't just between Sherlock and John, and what's even worse: The way the episode was written practically screamed out to me that Mary was needed to bring them back together, that they couldn't have done it without her. But please: It's the two of them against the rest of the world. Full stop.

SusiGo · June 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Yes. And the funny thing is that we never see her talking him round. He shaves and visits Sherlock the next day of his own accord. No Mary needed for that. But Sherlock possibly thought that it was her doing.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 8:47 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Yes. And the funny thing is that we never see her talking him round. He shaves and visits Sherlock the next day of his own accord. No Mary needed for that. But Sherlock possibly thought that it was her doing.

My feeling is that Mary played them both.

SusiGo · June 15, 2015 8:54 pm

Yes. Which later on becomes quite obvious in the napkin folding scene.

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 9:07 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
My feeling is that Mary played them both.

Well, the two of them have always been a bit stupid when it comes to emotions, both of them having their own issues. I think Mary gave them a well-needed push.

SusiGo · June 15, 2015 9:09 pm

But when did she do this? We never see it. She is surprised to see John shave and asks him if he is going to see Sherlock. No hint of a push, if you ask me.