BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse · January 31, 2015 4:15 pm

Swanpride wrote:
@vhanja Well, you can certainly discuss aspects you wish were better written concerning Mary in the "love" threat...as long as it comes from a position of love for the character. It is supposed to be a safe place if you are not in the mood to discuss what the best way is to get rid of her and similiar.

One thing for sure: Mary is certainly a character which promps people to talk and disagree about, so I guess the writers did something right.

I'm so tired to read this. If you have trouble with the way a character is shown why does it break down to this? Read the last pages and I think we have not done such a bad job to really discuss Mary in lots and lots of facets and points of view. I don't want to feel uncomfortable as well for prefering concentration on the two main characters. Excusing just anything can get way more onesided than the discussion that occurred here lately. Just saying.

SusiGo · June 15, 2015 3:23 pm

So I thought I had finished this thread but then I read something on tumblr that reflects my thoughs so very well. Just this:

What is alarming to me, is how many people in the fandom support this belief. How a marriage vow, a baby, a heterosexual family, are the epitome of moral standards. Able to be forgiven, justified, even in the face of severe faults in the female character’s selfish and callous actions. She still deserves her reward of a husband, a family, a future. Excuses not in evidence used to exonerate her. The queer man vilified still, scorned, denied his right to a husband, relegated to ‘uncle’ with his desires only acceptable in ‘'head canon’ and fan fiction. Thankfully Moftiss see the problem, they won’t support it.

Source: http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/121591461616/sussexbound-hubblegleeflower

Harriet · June 15, 2015 3:32 pm

Yeah, this sums it up very nicely. And, like the author, I'm confident things will work out for the best.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 15, 2015 4:22 pm

Sorry but that's utter nonsense. Nobody "deserve" or "deserve not" a baby or a family. A baby is not a reward. there's no licence to be a parent. As far as We know, Sherlock is not a political manifesto. That's not because People don't want to put a character on a virtual public trial that they support a conservative view about traditionnal family.

Harriet · June 15, 2015 4:25 pm

I'm quite sure that you missed the intention of the piece.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 15, 2015 4:51 pm

I reacted to the quote above. Yes. And to the fact Mary deserves not to have a family. But having read the piece doesn't change my mind. Is there any indication in the show that John Watson discover hétérosexual family isn't made for him?

Liberty · June 15, 2015 5:47 pm

I don't think the problems in with the relationship with Mary are anything to do with it being a heterosexual one. Leaving aside the fact that she has to be a woman to be pregnant (I do see that if she wasn't pregnant, John would have less motivation to forgive her), if she was male, the problems would still be there - the lies, shooting Sherlock, the past, etc.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 6:26 pm

SusiGo wrote:
So I thought I had finished this thread but then I read something on tumblr that reflects my thoughs so very well. Just this:

What is alarming to me, is how many people in the fandom support this belief. How a marriage vow, a baby, a heterosexual family, are the epitome of moral standards. Able to be forgiven, justified, even in the face of severe faults in the female character’s selfish and callous actions. She still deserves her reward of a husband, a family, a future. Excuses not in evidence used to exonerate her. The queer man vilified still, scorned, denied his right to a husband, relegated to ‘uncle’ with his desires only acceptable in ‘'head canon’ and fan fiction. Thankfully Moftiss see the problem, they won’t support it.

Source: http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/121591461616/sussexbound-hubblegleeflower

I saw this on Tumblr-- and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

There's this weird double standard I see floating around in the fandom: (Keep in mind that for the purposes of this conversation, I'm speaking verrrry broadly, here) , but-- let's think about it . Sherlock lies to John, jumps off a building in front of him, and goes away for two years. Never mind that he did it (as of TRF) to save John, Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade-- we still have the majority of fandom wanting Sherlock to attone some more. And more. It's never going to be enough.

On the other hand, Mary lies to John about who she is from day one-- to protect herself. Let's think about that. She lied about her given name, where she grew up-- all those anedotes about college and friends and being a kid and formative experiences that you have when forming a relationship-- all lies. Then, she SHOOTS SHERLOCK. That's a biggie.

And I was thinking about this last night; she went--alone, armed with a gun outfitted with a silencer to the empty house. Where was John? With Sherlock. But she didn't know that. That means she took off on her own, without telling John-- doing this behind his back-- so she could get to Sherlock first.

Her secret of course is revealed, and does she ever show any sort of remorse?

What I don't understand is how she gets a pass! I mean, what she did was 20 times worse than anything Sherlcok did-- yet, we're willing to go backwards 50-100 years to excuse her by saying things like, "Oh, she's pregnant. She was overwhelmed by the hormones." , or "She was In Love and trying to Save Her Relationship, so she Panicked!"
It's like we're saying that we women (when in the Grip of Love) are not entirely responsible for our actions, we're not rational creatures after all. And there are a lot of fics that portray Mary as this loving- June Cleaver- sort of housewife-- and honestly, that's not entirely fair either-- to Mary.

The other thing-- why does Mary's need to have the suburban fantasy trump John's rights? You never really hear people talk about what it must be for John-- to know he's married an assassin who has lied and lied and lied to him, from day one-- who has shot his best friend that he pined over for two years-- who won't even give him a say in naming the baby! Poor JOHN. He's trapped.

Meanwhile, Sherlock-- who is the person in HLV who truly seems to know what love is (and we watch him learning, very painfully) -- is relegated to pining the rest of his life. He loses John, and he nearly loses his life by killing Magnussen for John's benefit.

I don't know-- I think the "love of a good man redeeming the unredeemable woman" trope, combined with "all women would kill to have the suburban fantasy" trope is just frayin' my last nerve.

Honestly, I think the John/Mary relationship really speaks to the idea that both charcters are very invested in trying to be someone they're not. They both keep trying to submerge the parts of themselves they don't like, or think aren't respectable. The difference between them is that Mary is consciously doing it, whereas John is just in denial about it.

Sorry-- I need more coffeeeeeeeeeeee..........

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (June 15, 2015 6:30 pm)

Schmiezi · June 15, 2015 6:46 pm

No need to say sorry, Raven. I love you post and completely agree with you.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 6:50 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
No need to say sorry, Raven. I love you post and completely agree with you.

(((Blush!))) Thanks!

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 7:13 pm

I think we forget that all the three characters (Sherlock, John and Mary) are strong-willed and more than able to make choices of their own. It was Mary's choice to lie to John. It was Sherlock's choice to support her. It was Sherlock's choice to kill Magnussen. It was John's choice to forgive (or start to forgive) Mary.

Although I see several of the points made here, I don't think Sherlock should be made into a victim here. No one expected him to kill Magnussen, he could have left it as it was and John wouldn't blame him. Yet he did it. John could have chosen to not go back to Mary after she lied to him and shot his best friend - yet he did.

I don't feel it's right to put all the blame on Mary. Sherlock and John are not mindless pawns in her game. They are strong and stubborn characters of their own who will make their own choices.

Sherlock Holmes · June 15, 2015 7:22 pm

Raven & Vhanja - Both excellent points, excellently made!

After months and months of personal debating ever since the show aired, I have finally decided that I dislike and distrust Mary. I find it hard to forgive her for what she did.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 7:25 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I think we forget that all the three characters (Sherlock, John and Mary) are strong-willed and more than able to make choices of their own. It was Mary's choice to lie to John. It was Sherlock's choice to support her. It was Sherlock's choice to kill Magnussen. It was John's choice to forgive (or start to forgive) Mary.

Although I see several of the points made here, I don't think Sherlock should be made into a victim here. No one expected him to kill Magnussen, he could have left it as it was and John wouldn't blame him. Yet he did it. John could have chosen to not go back to Mary after she lied to him and shot his best friend - yet he did.

I don't feel it's right to put all the blame on Mary. Sherlock and John are not mindless pawns in her game. They are strong and stubborn characters of their own who will make their own choices.

Actually, if I had had my way about it-- Sherlock wouldn't have killed Magnussen, and Magnussen would have destroyed Mary. He would have brought her chickens home to roost. And it would have been her own fault, and Sherlock would have been out of it. As for John, yeah-- I'd have liked him to , if not picking Sherlock-- maybe just acting in his own best interests!

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 7:26 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Raven & Vhanja - Both excellent points, excellently made!

After months and months of personal debating ever since the show aired, I have finally decided that I dislike and distrust Mary. I find it hard to forgive her for what she did.

I have this weird opinion of Mary that only makes sense in my head, I think:

I like her as a character, always have. She surprised me with her support of John being with Sherlock, and I will always love her for that fact. And when Sherlock forgave her for shooting her, so did I. When John wanted to give her a second chance, so did I.

However, despite I'm being one of the few on this forum who honestly like her, I will cheer the day she is out of the picture. The only tear I will shed when (if?) she dies is for John receiving another blow (the poor man can never get a break). Because no one should come between Sherlock and John, and make John live anywhere else than 221B.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 15, 2015 7:30 pm

I keep wondering... if Mary was male and John was female, would we be so forgiving?

Marvin lies to Johanna from the time he meets her about his past as a paid assassin. He passes himself off as a good man, a respectable man who wants to settle down and have kids and suburbian life. He comforts Johanna through grieiving for her best friend, who committed suicide two years before.

Then, said friend (Sherlock) comes back. Sherlock is a threat. And when being caught red-handed by Sherlock, Marvin shoots and nearly kills Sherlock. Johanna finally finds this out-- same scenario, blah, blah, blah.

Now: Do we expect Johanna to just up and forgive Marvin? To take Marvin back, after finding out all that he has done?

I think we'd all be telling Johanna to run screaming!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (June 15, 2015 7:30 pm)

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 7:33 pm

The tumblr post speaks from the bottom of my heart. I agree with Liberty, that the problem with Mary and her relationship with John does not come from being a heterosexual one. It comes from flaws of characterization, of believability of her actions, as well as believability of Sherlock's or John's actions and words. Maybe some scenes don't sit well with lots of fans because characterization /plot believability was sacrificed to the shocking effect? Might be a part of it, at least. The big question is, at the moment being Sherlock sacrificed everything to preserve this idyll. Is it worth it? Because it's a traditional set up? What's the message then? And if the trouble is that the relationship of John and Mary is based on a mutual lulling but neither really wants this life and is happy with it, where does it lead? Concerning the team, I mean. The balance.
Edit: Lol, Raven, Marvin and Johanna...

Last edited by mrshouse (June 15, 2015 7:35 pm)

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 7:36 pm

Probably not. Double-standard between genders is nothing new.

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 7:39 pm

mrshouse wrote:
What's the message then?

I've always seen the message as Sherlock's final lesson about love: How the happiness of the one you love is more important than anything else. That he is willing to give up everything (again) for John to be happy shows how far he has grown as a character. Ironically, he uses the "socipoath" line again, but the action is the most altruistic he's ever done.

"His Last Vow". That is what it is. Sherlock keeping his promise - that the happines of John and Mary is what he will protect above anything else.

mrshouse · June 15, 2015 7:50 pm

Yes, Vhanja, that might be in it. I'm one of the fans who rather would like to see Sherlock happy in the end than to see him vanishing into even deeper Orcus for what does not feel right.

Vhanja · June 15, 2015 7:53 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Yes, Vhanja, that might be in it. I'm one of the fans who rather would like to see Sherlock happy in the end than to see him vanishing into even deeper Orcus for what does not feel right.

You know me - the day I see Johnlock on screen, I will pop the champagne.