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January 28, 2015 4:05 pm  #1781


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 28, 2015 8:12 pm  #1782


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Mary didn't do the easy@ sensible thing for John....leave when Magnussen first contacted her...  Or just tell John Or Sherlock the truth...even when offered help....she knew that would probably mean her seperation from John.
When Sherlock shot Magnussen.....he knew it would.
Sherlock put John first. Mary put herself first.

 

January 28, 2015 9:57 pm  #1783


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Swanpride wrote:

I don't see Mary's love as selfish. Like Sherlock, she would do everything for John.

You know, if Sherlock had come to the conclusion that shooting Mary would be the best way out of the situation with Magnusson, he would have done it. That is the sole reason why he encourages John to forgive her, because he understands Mary operating outside of the parameters society considers acceptable.

But this is speculation, not what we see in the show. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 28, 2015 10:53 pm  #1784


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Yes. But is Mary also on the side of the angels? 

Does it really matter if she kept her equipment or just knew how to procure it? Not really. Most people would not even know where to get that stuff, she did. And "this one attack" is enough if you look at the consequences. 

Which would have changed nothing. Moriarty did not target John because he was living with Sherlock but because he knew Sherlock cared for John. Leaving him would not have changed that. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 28, 2015 10:55 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 28, 2015 10:54 pm  #1785


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Oh yes, she might have organised her equipment. From her old friends. They were for sure willing to help out.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 28, 2015 11:25 pm  #1786


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I wonder if the rise in Sherlock 'bashing' is connected to the lack of a defence for Mary . Ignoring facts about Mary with unrelated acts of Sherlocks....doesn't work , Sherlocks behaviour is irrelevant to Marys , even if it is comparable - the motives and means are entirely different.

 

January 29, 2015 7:17 am  #1787


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Firstly, Mary does not everything for John. In the shooting scene and her threatening behavior afterwards she couldn't care less if she resets John's grieving process by risking his life.
Secondly, Sherlock killing Mary, if necessary? Where does that even come from? What is there to back that up? He neither threatened her at one point nor was armed, was he supposed to throttle her with his bare hands? He called her " Mrs. Watson" because she obviously needed a little reminder as to who should matter the most.
The only thing I can warm up with is that they mirror each other in supporting John's forgiveness.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 29, 2015 8:33 am  #1788


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I found an interesting, very well written meta that explains Mary´s behaviour as a typical behaviour of a psychopath. Especially the explanation of Mary´s strong possessivenes in regard to John which goes hand in hand with subtle contempt towards him rings very true, IMHO:

http://ifyouhaveenoughnerve.tumblr.com/post/77363398901/penitence-paradox-and-psychopathy-why-mary-is-a
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 29, 2015 8:59 am  #1789


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Thank you. I read it some time ago and while I do not agree in every detail it does a lot for explaining her motives and her behaviour. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 29, 2015 9:00 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 29, 2015 9:49 am  #1790


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

It's really as simple as that the show would be finished by that, that's fact. And apart from that, still nothing to back up that Sherlock would shoot Mary if needed.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 29, 2015 1:54 pm  #1791


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Swanpride wrote:

I didn't wrote that Sherlock would kill Mary if necessary. I wrote that he would shoot her. Mary didn't try to kill Sherlock either.That's firmly established in the episode, even if there are some fans which firmly ignore the little fact. And it is a fact, because if it weren't true, Sherlock would be dead. It's really that simple.

What about "She risked killing him" then? Because some people still ignore the fact that she did not hit him in a save spot that guaranteed survial.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1235479
 


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 29, 2015 2:23 pm  #1792


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Not only risked killing him, but disregarded his death, yes.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 29, 2015 2:29 pm  #1793


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Swanpride wrote:

I didn't wrote that Sherlock would kill Mary if necessary. I wrote that he would shoot her. Mary didn't try to kill Sherlock either.That's firmly established in the episode, even if there are some fans which firmly ignore the little fact. And it is a fact, because if it weren't true, Sherlock would be dead. It's really that simple.

 
There's a difference between "ignoring" a fact and questioning wether it is actually "a fact."


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 29, 2015 2:58 pm  #1794


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

tonnaree wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

I didn't wrote that Sherlock would kill Mary if necessary. I wrote that he would shoot her. Mary didn't try to kill Sherlock either.That's firmly established in the episode, even if there are some fans which firmly ignore the little fact. And it is a fact, because if it weren't true, Sherlock would be dead. It's really that simple.

 
There's a difference between "ignoring" a fact and questioning wether it is actually "a fact."

For example, questioning a fact requires you to think. 


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 29, 2015 7:21 pm  #1795


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Because she wanted to keep John in doubt whether she actually wanted to kill Sherlock.
She knew she would loose him if she had shot Sherlock in the head and John found out about that.
But by killing him with a shot in the chest she could make John doubt it was by intention.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 29, 2015 7:22 pm  #1796


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

And, as I said, show ended.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 29, 2015 7:23 pm  #1797


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Right! 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 29, 2015 7:33 pm  #1798


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Harriet wrote:

Because she wanted to keep John in doubt whether she actually wanted to kill Sherlock.
She knew she would loose him if she had shot Sherlock in the head and John found out about that.
But by killing him with a shot in the chest she could make John doubt it was by intention.

That doesn't quite follow, though.  It takes Sherlock's explanation for John to believe that Mary didn't mean to kill him.  That wouldn't exist if Sherlock was dead.  (I mean the story really struggles to be plausible as it is.   It really needs Sherlock to be alive to have any hope of it being at all believable). 

And also, if Sherlock was dead, John wouldn't have found out about Mary.
 

 

January 29, 2015 8:17 pm  #1799


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty wrote:

Harriet wrote:

Because she wanted to keep John in doubt whether she actually wanted to kill Sherlock.
She knew she would loose him if she had shot Sherlock in the head and John found out about that.
But by killing him with a shot in the chest she could make John doubt it was by intention.

That doesn't quite follow, though.  It takes Sherlock's explanation for John to believe that Mary didn't mean to kill him.  That wouldn't exist if Sherlock was dead.  (I mean the story really struggles to be plausible as it is.   It really needs Sherlock to be alive to have any hope of it being at all believable). 

And also, if Sherlock was dead, John wouldn't have found out about Mary.
 

I think that if Sherlock had died, Mycroft would have found out and told John it had been Mary. If she is truely as clever as Sherlock (or even more so) she must have known that. Then she would have also needed the benefit of doubt.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 29, 2015 8:26 pm  #1800


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Because John could come in any minute and she needed time to escape the building the same way she entered. If John had found Sherlock dead, he would have immediately called the police and had started to look for the killer himself, which would have been pretty dangerous for her..

That said, I really believe Sherlock´s explanation is meant to be true, believable or not. So, Mary didn´t try to kill him.. just overestimated her bullet-surgery-skills.. well, that can happen, nobody´s perfect *argh* ^^. 
She didn´t try to kill him, just was okay with putting him through an incredible amount of pain, bloodloss and shock to avoid John finding out the truth about her. She didn´t try to kill him but was okay with putting his life in immediate danger to get her out of her corner. She didn´t try to kill him, but was okay with hospitalizing him to strengthen her position for negotiation. Somehow it doesn´t get better for me.. Mrs. Psychopath indeed. ^^

Last edited by Zatoichi (January 29, 2015 8:27 pm)

 

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