BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse · January 8, 2015 8:40 am

*taking sides with Susi*

nakahara · January 8, 2015 9:05 am

I would be glad if the authors connected Mary´s story with some Sherlock´s mystery from the canon. There are several which are suitable for her and it would be easier to embed her into the story in a natural way through it.

Last edited by nakahara (January 8, 2015 9:06 am)

mrshouse · January 8, 2015 9:08 am

Agreed, nakahara, that would be much more interesting than having them gathered at 221b like the Ewings on the Southfork ranch...

SusiGo · January 8, 2015 9:09 am

The horror, the horror!

SusiGo · January 8, 2015 10:06 am

I think they do not mean participating in the solving of cases but her being similar to or based on a character from a Canon case. Some people go for Birdy Edwards.

mrshouse · January 8, 2015 10:12 am

Swanpride wrote:
Why does she have to be embedded in the cases at all? I mean, it's John's hobby, why shouldn't she allow him to have some fun with Sherlock from time to time? It's not like Sherlock is working constantly on complicated cases which require John's assistance.

I fully agree with you on that one, personally I don't need her on cases at all. Just two quick notes then: part of the charm with Sherlock and John is that they both function better in the presence of each other. So I don't really see the point of Sherlock going on cases alone very often ( though in canon he did, but mostly in between stories). And secondly, what is Mary's point then? And apart from that, yesterday I mentioned a few hints as to why I don't think it's likely for her to be in the background if she is to stay.

SusiGo · January 8, 2015 10:17 am

Please read again nakahara's post. I think it is not about a crime-solving trio but about explaining Mary by using Canon material.

mrshouse · January 8, 2015 10:20 am

Yes, I got that.

nakahara · January 8, 2015 10:49 am

Yes, I would really like to know something about her past eventually (and some plots from ACD´s stories are suitable for that). I will be disappointed if she remains enigma forever. HLV would look weird for me, if that´s the case.

mrshouse · January 8, 2015 11:11 am

In my opinion the setup of Mary throughout S3 does not make really sense if she lingers to be a character for John to vent to from time to time. And I think we have great side characters for that. Making her another character from canon with a story seems more likely for me.
Personally I never felt that characters like Lestrade or Molly were more Sherlock's friends than John's. Lestrade found Sherlock always a bit irritating but needed him. And Molly got a crush on Sherlock, which is a complete different matter. And concerning the fun, well, matter of taste, I think. I seldom find real life couples to play couples on screen very sparkling. Especially in comparison with Martins and Benedict's chemistry. The chemistry of Martin and Amanda in this particular setting never convinced me.

Last edited by mrshouse (January 8, 2015 11:15 am)

Zatoichi · January 8, 2015 11:44 am

I do see some chemistry between them.. not as sparkling as the one between Sherlock and John, but more like a cosy, solidly established relationship. Which isn´t necessarily a bad thing, and probably also something John needs.. being more the sitting-down type from time to time . It could have been a nice counterbalance to Sherlock´s more dramatic role in John´s life.. but now she is supposed to be just like Sherlock, "keeping John in trouble" and not being able to stay away from the battlefield for long.. which feels a bit crowded for me. Like, that place is already taken, now that Sherlock doesn´t leave the picture..? But again we´ll have to wait and see what they do with her. I´d agree that a case revolving around her past/backstory would be a great way to continue the plot and embed her in the story in a little less forced way!

SusiGo · January 24, 2015 12:18 pm

We all know how the creators of the show love to play with parallels - in narrative, imagery, dialogue, etc. Now I read something interesting on tumblr I did not notice when reading the Sherlock Chronicles. You will find it on page 209 of the book.

From HLV we know (if we choose to believe Sherlock) that Mary Morstan aka A.G.R.A. got her name from the gravestone of a stillborn child.

In the Sherlock Chronicles we find the photograph of a birth certificate created by the arts department. It is the faked birth certificate for Richard Brook. As it is difficult to take a photo I include the data given in the certificate:

Date and Place of Birth: 11 Nov. 1975; Evelyn Nursing Room, Cambridge
Name: Richard Brook
Sex: Boy
Father’s name: Patrick Brook.
Mother’s name: Mary Brook Formerly BAKER of 112 Gilbert Street, Cambridge.
Father’s occupation: Teacher.
Address of father: Patrick Brook of 219 Sandy Road, Cambridge.
Date of Death: 21 Nov. 1975.
Signature of registrar: E. T. Cooper, Registrar.

So it seems Moriarty took the name of a child who lived only ten days to create an alternate identity for himself. Well …

Of course there is the additional fact that Brook's mother was called Mary Baker, both names that have a connection to Sherlock. And that the initials of his mother are M.L. But this is for another thread, I suppose.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 24, 2015 12:21 pm)

lil · January 24, 2015 5:46 pm

Thats interesting Susi...wouldn't the mother be Mary Brook..nee Baker...M.B.
IDK but Mary Baker and 221 seem....in there somewhere.

Cambridge Uni right by Gilbert St...most people place SH as attending there so wouldnt he know the area well? Also no Sandy St in Cambridge....but a Cambridge St in.....Sandy.
Coincidences....or the mock up people having laughs.

obscure but hilarious if a ref to Sandra Gilberts The Mad Woman in the attic @ etcs.... . :-)

Last edited by lil (January 24, 2015 7:07 pm)

BHavers · January 25, 2015 7:14 pm

Mary bashing, isn't it a bit of jealousy about Martin, sorry, I mean John?

I agree with some of your posts, Mary isn't one of my favourite character, but Moftiss clearly didn't look for a nice and consensual one.
For once a female character gets a REAL role (Molly's one has been improved, but as a whole, women's character are pathetic), it's a bad girl. Ok,why not.

SusiGo · January 25, 2015 10:43 pm

This is a discussion thread. Everything that is stated here is supported by the show. Maybe you should read the whole thread before talking about bashing.

Harriet · January 25, 2015 10:46 pm

And first of all the first post to understand what this thread is about

SolarSystem · January 26, 2015 8:35 am

BHavers wrote:
For once a female character gets a REAL role (Molly's one has been improved, but as a whole, women's character are pathetic), it's a bad girl. Ok,why not.

Glad you mention this. Because one of my very first thoughts after HLV was 'Okay, it seems they wanted to make Mary more interesting and of course they had to make her bad (or at least not all that nice)... really?'.
I think it's far more difficult to make a 'normal' character who doesn't have an ex-assassin-backstory appear real and interesting. It's probably a bit like playing the good guy vs playing the bad guy in a film, lots of actors say that it's more fun and very often also easier to play the baddie. The same might be true of writing a baddie. It's probably more fun... okay, maybe not more fun than writing a character like Sherlock, but probably more fun than writing Mrs. Hudson (although that's probably lots of fun, too).
Anyway. I'm not one of those people who think that turning Mary into an ex-assassin with a dubious past was exceptionally ingenious. As an idea I think it's rather boring.

nakahara · January 26, 2015 8:46 am

I second that. It´s not so hard to make your character seem "strong" if you put a gun into their hand and make them champions in martial arts.

SusiGo · January 26, 2015 8:50 am

My problem with Mary as a character is slightly different. I do not mind so much that they turned her into a villain than - at least on the surface and based on what we get at the end of HLV - that the viewers are supposed to forgive her and accept her as being redeemed. Does not work for me, never will.

Davina · January 26, 2015 10:29 am

I think any redemption needs to be 'earned' by the character and that, usually, takes time in character development.