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Schmiezi wrote:
Dear Jim ...
No wonder she looked scared when the most improbable witness of all rose from his grave again..
(A girl can dream.. )
Last edited by Zatoichi (January 6, 2015 7:35 pm)
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besleybean wrote:
It is REALLY odd that he has hardly referenced her...
Did he hire her?
As I said, not my preferred theory. But it is strange that they never meet before the tarmac scene. Even at the Holmes cottage they are in separate rooms all the time. Mycroft has observed John during Sherlock's absence. He checked on John before he moved in with Sherlock. Hard to believe he does not know about Mary's past.
Last edited by SusiGo (January 6, 2015 7:51 pm)
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Hmmm...
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Also didn't come to the wedding - which is fine, of course he wouldn't want to go to a wedding, and John wouldn't necessarily invite him (they're not close friends). But they do seem to make a point of him not being at the wedding, and he even has his own little scene during it, predicting doom and gloom.
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And there is the fact that Sherlock was shot and we never see Mycroft reacting to this or doing anything to investigate, etc.
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And Daddy and Mummy clearly don't know who shot the baby brother...
Last edited by besleybean (January 6, 2015 8:25 pm)
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Indeed. All very strange.
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But the fact that he does not seem to know about Mary is suspicious in itself. In the past he has always tried to keep Sherlock and John together. He trusted John and asked him to look after Sherlock in TRF. He kept an eye on John during Sherlock's "death" and knew that he and Mary had become a couple. Therefore it would be completely out of character for him not to check her out. And Mycroft is a professional. If Magnussen was able to uncover her past, Mycroft would surely be able to do the same.
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This is about his brother's best friend. I really do not believe he would put some amateur to the job.
Last edited by SusiGo (January 6, 2015 10:02 pm)
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Mary working for Mycroft , or Mycroft using Mary as bait for the bigger fish would tie up a lot of loose ends.
Think its very improbable that Mycroft doesn't know about Mary and who shot Sherlock....even some random paramedics know....
Someone high up must have halted the NSY investigation.
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Yes, good points, lil. This non-existing investigation into the shooting is another hole that needs to be filled.
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Swanpride wrote:
The whole assassin thing aside, Mary is way more lovely compared to Sarah. She is the type person who is so invinting that scared neighbors would turn up at her doorstep at an impossible hour for support.
You get it absolutely wrong. The neighbour didn´t came to ask Mary for help, she came to ask JOHN for help. As it was in the original story (The Man with a twisted lip) from which this scene was adapted. The neighbour wouldn´t in her wildest dream ask a pregnant woman to enter a drug den and find her drugged up son in those surroundings.
And it was him, the grumpy, frowning John who was willing to go and help (no, it was not all about him craving danger, he actually cared for the boy). Your sweet-hearted Mary was all: "Why do you go? You can´t go, I´m pregnant!"
It was also John who took pity over Wiggins with a sprained arm. Your sweet Mary only told him: "Go away!"
Swanpride wrote:
She correctly analyses Sherlock's scared behaviour and encourages John to do whatever necessary to lessen his fears (what else is she suppose to do? Cancel the wedding?).
She only got rid of them to make plans how to burgle CAM´s office. She cared shit about Sherlock´s feelings.
Swanpride wrote:
And everytime she asserts herself (like when she throws the "you are pregnant" argument back into John's face) I want to applaud her, because she adresses stuff which would bother me, too.
People have said to the emancipated heroine of one Swedish novel: "You know, you must not neccessarily castrate your husband to feel worthy." This sentence could be written about Mary as well.
Swanpride wrote:
Accepting someone else like he or she is is nice, but relationships are work.
Yes, it´s hard work to accept that your spouse is a serial killer who would shoot your beloved friends without batting an eyelash because she lacks any remorse.
Swanpride wrote:
You always have to compromise one way or another. And this works only when both participants are ready to give into the needs of the other from time to time.
John gave into Mary´s need by taking her back after she betrayed him in the worst way possible. She refused to even let him name her child. This relationship can´t work according to your own criteria.
Swanpride wrote:
Before TSoT we have never seen Sherlock doing this for John.
Nonsense.
Sherlock cured John´s limp. Sherlock gave John his credit card when John was broke. He let him take and keep five thousand pounds from Sebastian Wilkes. He opened Irene´s safe so that John wouldn´t be shot. He pulled John out of the fire. If you were watching the show called "Sherlock" instead of "Mary" you wouldn´t have missed those moments.
Last edited by nakahara (January 7, 2015 8:27 am)
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Swanpride wrote:
It is pretty much senseless to go against your ongoing negative claims about Mary, ...
because your positivity is not half as convincing, imho.
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Swanpride wrote:
Sherlock cured John's limp to "proof a point". He gave John his credit card because he himself doesn't care for money. And sure, he doesn't want John to die. But whenever John's plans don't go conform with Sherlock's plans, he forced John to go along with him, to a degree that he crashed his date. When John decided to spend Christmas with Harry, Sherlock was "sulking", and ruining the little Christmas get-together which was apparently important for John. There is not one instances in which Sherlock puts John above his own needs before TSoT. Not that he doesn't care for him, he certainly does, and he would protect him. But the next step, to be a friend with no strings attached that is something which happens in season 3.
Sherlock had nothing to proove by curing John´s limp, he gave him card because John asked him to (and once again, this deed served no purpose to Sherlock). And John hates spending time with his alcoholic sister (doesn´t phone her, doesn´t miss her at the wedding) - he was glad to spend Christmas with his date and friends instead of her.
Swanpride wrote:
It is pretty much senseless to go against your ongoing negative claims about Mary, but concerning the neighbor: She doesn't come to their house because she expects that someone would go into the drug den for her, she doesn't even mention that she knows where her son most likely is, she comes to get some comfort, it is John who decides to act. And in Canon, ACD makes a point to mention that people coming to Mary for help is a thing which happens regularly and that this is one of the reasons John loves Mary so much. In this case the friend goes to Mary and then Mary asks John (James....) to help.
Those are not negative claims, they are thing I actually saw in the show. And I sure as hell didn´t saw that saint Mary you are describing here.
In Victorian times, it was not proper for a woman to visit a man, alone, it would cast her name into a dubious light. That´s the sole reason the neighbour visited Mary and not John first. But she wanted that some man - John (James) - would go and find her husband. The Mary was just a mediator between them.
And as we spoke before that kindhearted Mary was stillborn in this story - you yourself defended her demise. Don´t ascribe her good qualities onto AGRA, the assassin.
Last edited by nakahara (January 6, 2015 11:08 pm)
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I think any comparison between kind gentle damsel MM of cannon...and psycho assasin nurse of Sherlock....hilarious.
And thats brilliant ! Maybe it's a deliberate metaphor....back then women were bleh....and now....kick ass! ?
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Swanpride wrote:
@Harriet No, because we won't find common ground, it's a discussion which will go in circles to no end.
@nakahara As far as we know, John did spend Christmas with Harry, the get together was just something they did beforehand, but the plans were still on. And John is clearly disappointed that Harry doesn't show up for the wedding, he just consoles himself with the fact that all the alcohol around wouldn't be good for her either way.
And to quote from "The Man with the Twisted Lip":
“You will excuse my calling so late,” she began, and then, suddenly losing her self-control, she ran forward, threw her arms about my wife’s neck, and sobbed upon her shoulder. “Oh, I’m in such trouble!” she cried; “I do so want a little help.” (Note: She goes to Mary first, not to John)
“Why,” said my wife, pulling up her veil, “it is Kate Whitney. How you startled me, Kate! I had not an idea who you were when you came in.”
“I didn’t know what to do, so I came straight to you.” That was always the way. Folk who were in grief came to my wife like birds to a light-house. (Here the confirmation that this is a common occurence)
“It was very sweet of you to come. Now, you must have some wine and water, and sit here comfortably and tell us all about it. Or should you rather that I sent James off to bed?”
“Oh, no, no! I want the doctor’s advice and help, too. It’s about Isa. He has not been home for two days. I am so frightened about him!” (Note the "too"...she needs male help, but she wouldn't have went to John if he weren't married with Mary. She needs Mary as emotional support as much as she needs some guy who would fetch her husband).
I must repeat myself, but so be it. The morality in Victorian era resembled today´s morality in some more rigorous muslim countries and it would be out of the question for this woman to throw her arms around John´s throat and to sob on his shoulder if she was not married/realted to him. But she came for John´s help - she only had to ask for it through Mary´s mediation.
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lil wrote:
I think any comparison between kind gentle damsel MM of cannon...and psycho assasin nurse of Sherlock....hilarious.
And thats brilliant ! Maybe it's a deliberate metaphor....back then women were bleh....and now....kick ass! ?
It is a sad world in which common human decency is taken for "bleh" and a cruel person with no remorse gets accolades for being "kick-ass".
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nakahara wrote:
lil wrote:
I think any comparison between kind gentle damsel MM of cannon...and psycho assasin nurse of Sherlock....hilarious.
And thats brilliant ! Maybe it's a deliberate metaphor....back then women were bleh....and now....kick ass! ?It is a sad world in which common human decency is taken for "bleh" and a cruel person with no remorse gets accolades for being "kick-ass".
Your right...ish...
bleh..was a poor choice...I did have a rather large amount of things on the subjugation of victorian women social reform and the suffragette movement in mind but would of prob ranted...so compressed it badly...I would defend women are now more kick ass now though...
Notice....neither were referring to MM personally though...rather women in general.
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nakahara wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Before TSoT we have never seen Sherlock doing this for John.
Bullshit!
I' m new here, but this is the first time I have come across members using this type of language on the board. Is this allowed? I'm asking the moderator(s). I'm not a prud - believe me I can swear with the best of them but I thought this board was supposed to be friendly and conversational - good strong debates and lively discourse but not this type of thing.
Like I said, I'm new here and although I have read a lot of threads and comments I haven't read all of them (is that even really possible??) so I don't know the parameters of what I am dealing with.
Any help on this matter would clarify things greatly for me.
Thanks.
-Val
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Ah-chie wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Before TSoT we have never seen Sherlock doing this for John.
Bullshit!
I' m new here, but this is the first time I have come across members using this type of language on the board. Is this allowed? I'm asking the moderator(s). I'm not a prud - believe me I can swear with the best of them but I thought this board was supposed to be friendly and conversational - good strong debates and lively discourse but not this type of thing.
Like I said, I'm new here and although I have read a lot of threads and comments I haven't read all of them (is that even really possible??) so I don't know the parameters of what I am dealing with.
Any help on this matter would clarify things greatly for me.
Thanks.
-Val
So as not to disturb, I changed the "bullshit" in my original post to "nonsense". Because I really believe that it is nonsense and that Sherlock cared for John´s wellbeing selflessly even before TSOT.