Schmiezi wrote:

Does someone (who can create gifs or screenshots better than me) have a pic of John's expression right after "forgiving" Mary? To me, he looks neither happy nor relieved. He still looks tense. IMO.

He does look just as tense when he forgives Sherlock. Probably having to do with his best friend again staging a life-or-death situation for John to suit his own personal needs.

As narrative goes, it makes no sense for me that Mary should be "evil". We have had one big revelation - that the lovebale Mary turned out to be an asassin, and John having to deal with this. It would be poor writing to then AGAIN go - "haha, we fooled you. She was an EVIL assassin!". 

I still think she will die -  probably in the special - by sacrifcing herself for John and/or Sherlock. I can't see any other solution.

besleybean wrote:

I think many of us are working on these lines...but the baby?!

Have no idea how they are going to solve that one. Easiest would be that Mary dies while still pregnant. 

Edit: After season one, Moffat explained that there were a lot of possibilities in the canon, stating something like. "Watson was married for a while, we might do that."

The way he said it, and the way it is in canon, makes me think that the marriage was always meant to be a temporary thing.
 

Last edited by Vhanja (December 28, 2014 11:49 am)

Very emotional.

He's been through a lot and has just explained to Mary it won't always be easy.

Yes the whole thing is jokey: cutting the grass etc.
Interesting how this scene parallels the tarmac scene.
John+ Mary=hug.
John+ Sherlock=handshake.
John tells Mary their future together will be his privilege.
John tells Sherlock the game is over.
John tells everybody apparently, that they are not choosing the baby's name!

Last edited by besleybean (December 28, 2014 12:53 pm)

I wouldn't put too much into her comment about baby names. She does the same in the proposal scene - jokes when things get too tense. Sherlock does the same in the tarmac scene. 

And she does take a step herself - she without any hesitation accepts that he is still angry and that it will show several times in the future. 

I don't think that scene is about John forgiving Mary. I think the scene is about John choosing to start the process of forgiving Mary. And Mary at least gives him the time and space he needs to get there, whereas Sherlock puts John in a fake life-and-death situation to force the forgiveness out of him before he is ready.

I just don't get why all the horrible things Sherlock does towards John are always handwaved away as nothing, while every little sentence Mary says is blown out of all proportions to show how evil and horrible she is. 

Last edited by Vhanja (December 28, 2014 1:02 pm)

The only mistake Sherlock pays for is lying to John for two years. And he continues to do horrible things after that as well (the tube scene).

Sherlock and Mary both lied to John.

- John was angry at Sherlock for maybe a week. After that, they went on a case together and Sherlock performed the tube scene because he needed to hear the forgiveness. And that need was more important to him than the horrible thing he put John through.
- John was angry at Mary for months. She was then also pregnant with his child (meaning she had a bond with John Sherlock didn't). She let him have the space and time he needed until he approached her.

Mary might be manipulative, but so is Sherlock. She might have a dark side, but so does Sherlock. She might not regret her past, neither does Sherlock. Sherlock has treated John worse over the series than what Mary ever has. 

No, I don't see why Sherlock gets away with what he does, while Mary is taken apart for a sentence. 

Last edited by Vhanja (December 28, 2014 1:46 pm)

I look upon the "names aspect" as a motif more than a theme and it is IMO a humorous motif both with Sherlock and Mary.  If someone wants to take it all very seriously then I can respect that, but that's not the way I see it. 

The Christmas reconciliation scene worked very well for me.  It was very touching and not something that I interpreted as manipulative on Mary's part.  John was free to decide what to do about his relationship with Mary - was their mutual love for each other strong enough to withstand the pressures of what had transpired?   Apparently, yes as far as John was concerned.  And Mary seemed genuine in her love of John. 

John chose not to look backward and dwell on Mary's former life.  That scene to me was evidence that he although he had been hurt by her hiding things from him, he had considered all the factors and come to the conclusion that Sherlock was right in telling him that he could trust her now.  I found the whole teary eyed hug and jokes about the cutting of the lawn and baby names endearing and lightened up the previously very serious moment when John gave his emotional speech about the strength of his love for her. 

I do think that some people who don't really like Mary as a character have a tendency to read many dark things into every word she says - it is kind of a natural reaction and I don't fault them for doing this (if you don't like a character you rarely give them the benefit of any doubt).  If you don't have anything against the character you are more likely to view their words and actions in a more positive light overall (or at least see her as a more balanced character with both good and bad aspects).  I can see both sides of Mary.  I like her as a written character and enjoy that she is both good sometimes and sometimes not so good .  In that way she fits in nicely with Sherlock and John, who aren't "all saints" or "all sinners" all the time either. 

I don't classify Mary as a villain - not in the same vein as Moriarty or Magnussen at all.  If she were Sherlock would never be so sure to repeatedly say (and show with his actions) that John could trust her.  This isn't just said once by him - especially near the end of HLV it is pointedly shown by his warm reception to Mary on the tarmac that he is entrusting Mary with the care of his best friend John.  There isn't a false note in his voice or action there.  He thinks Mary is someone who loves John just as much as he love him.   

Can this be turned around and made into something sinister?  Possibly (the writers could work any number of elements to change my perceptions in future episodes) but they would have to work within the framework of what they have already written to make it satisfying to me.  And that includes my very definite impression that John and Mary are in love with each other.  And that Sherlock has repeatedly indicated that he trusts Mary. 
 To change the dynamic of their relationship and not address these aspects would be disappointing to me.  Not totally ruinous, but still disappointing.  And I think the creative team on this show is too good to let this happen.
 -Val

Swanpride wrote:

Yeah I agree....
Even before Sherlock faked his death, he did some really, really shitty things to John. Crashing his date. Lying to him concerning the memory stick. Drugging him (or at least thinking that he drugged him) with an unknown substance and putting him into a ptsd triggering episode for an "experiment". He also mentioned during his wedding speech that John once lost a whole day because Sherlock experimented on him. None of those things are even remotely okay.
He also didn't jump to protect John. We thought for two years that he did, but since the assassin was taken out by Mycroft, Sherlock staged his death for exactly one person, and that was John. And in two years he never send him a message that he was okay after all. Even if he wanted John to grieve to make it more convincing, there was a point at which he could and should have contacted him.
And then he came back, believing that John just put his life on hold, and he had to see John's anger before it even occured to him to apologize. And then he let John believe that he was about to die to get his forgiveness, instead of waiting for him to come around.
I know, the usual excuse is that this is Sherlock, he simply doesn't understand. But the same is true for Mary. She took the path logical for her. 

I know really want to see the different versions....
 

Exactly! Sherlock has done many horrible things to John through their time together, people seem to forget that. His apology at their reunion wasn't really heartfelt either, in my opinion. As mentioned before, when it comes to emotions, Sherlock is like a child. Which we see clearly when he states: "I said I'm sorry, isn't that what you're supposed to do?"

He thinks that saying "sorry" is like a magic word. Oh, John is upset. Ok, then I need to say "sorry", and things will be fine. And then he's confused when that doesn't happen. He doesn't truly understand what he has done and why John is so upset. 

He has done countless horrible things to John before the fall (as mentioned in the quoted post), and continues with his horrible tube scene just after this. 

And yet Mary is the one who is blamed for being manipulative, and who gets condemned as a selfish villain for a few jokes to lighten a tense mood?