If it were 100% clear, there wouldn't be a need for discussion 

Her actions mostly are for me not a sight of love any more, but for possessiveness.

And there is still the option that Mary follows her own agenda, perhaps even acting in someone's order and that acting a loving wife to John is part of her job.

Vhanja wrote:

As I've mentioned before, I like Mary. And I like the relationship between John and Mary. (But I like the relationship between Sherlock and John much more). 

I partially agree to Mary being on the side of Mary. I also thinks she's on the side of John. It's obvious that she loves him, and has been a great support for him. She is also very sweet in her eager to get Sherlock and John back together again, something she wouldn't have done if she was only possesive and selfish. 

 
I like the relationship between John and Mary too.  And I see buckets of chemistry between them (and it goes both ways to me as well)...  Example: at the Holmes' cottage at Christmas and they were reconciled - I loved her I found her tears of joy when John said her present day problems were his privilege very natural and loving and John's response was in kind.

I fully believe that both of them love each other.  Doesn't mean they don't have their ups and downs.  Every couple does - their's are just more dramatic of course because they are in "Sherlock's Universe".

- Val

I wanted to say that a possessive Mary might know that she could very well loose John if she spoke against Sherlock after his return. She knows how much he means to John, after all.
Thus she prefers to act like she will bring them together again - in best case she will earn both men's gratitude.

I'm not out to convince you if you are determined to see Mary as possessive, but to me her feelings of love for John seem truly genuine.  I just don't view every action and word of hers with suspicion.  And the proof for me is neither does Sherlock.  Even after all the revelations about Mary at the end of HLV he still wants Mary to take care of John for him in his absence.  That means to me that Sherlock believes Mary has John's best interests at heart too.

-Val

Yes, Mary as a character is basically a blank. And the few things we get are provided by Sherlock and Magnussen and are a) not necessarily reliable and b) never confirmed or disputed by her. 

We have no idea if TEH Mary was her true self or HLV Mary or none of both. We cannot decide what was an act and what was not but I tend to believe that TEH Mary was a facade (like Sherlock says himself). And we do not really know what is behind. 

Last edited by SusiGo (December 22, 2014 2:12 pm)

There are many possible answers to your questions. But as you said, you have made your decision 

Harriet wrote:

There are many possible answers to your questions. But as you said, you have made your decision

Not sure if that remark was directed at me or not, but for clarity I think I should say that I haven't made any final decision about Mary yet. Some here have made some very interesting points about suspicions surrounding Mary and I appreciate that they don't trust her actions and words.  They also seem not to trust when Sherlock and others express positive views about Mary.  -That's a leap too far for me.  I just want to enjoy what I am watching and try and view things without too much overall cynicism.

For now I find Mary a person who has faults and finer points. She isn't a B/W character to me. It does bother me that she nearly killed Sherlock.  It couldn't help but bother me - I really love Sherlock.  But she also phoned the ambulance and Sherlock stated that convinced him she never meant to kill him and that she saved his life.  He didn't seem disingenuous when he said that.  So I believe him on that point.  I really don't want to view Sherlock's words with distrust.

Of course the writers could change all this but I don't think they wanted to make Mary a total villain in Series 3.  I think they wanted to make her someone who, although can be capable of ruthless violence, is also capable of loving John (and he capable of loving her).  It may not be the same type of love that Sherlock and John have but it is there for me.  She is a bit of a bundle of contradictions but then there are loads of permutations that could result from the shown actions and words of the various characters.  With the major characters of John and Sherlock, and in Series 3, Mary, their personalities are multi-faceted containing all sorts of realistic human contradictions.  But I think that what makes the character dynamics so interesting on this show.

Magnussen is probably the only B/W character that I have seen on the show.  He is pure in his evil and a deliciously (as played byLars Mikkelsen), slimy person through and through.  Sherlock's description of him rings really true.  Again I am trusting in Sherlock's words about his character but not just because he said so - it also matches up with what I have seen on screen.

Mary isn't a Magnussen type character to me.  She is complicated and absolutely has a dark side, but she isn't pure anything to me.  Again, for now, at least.  That could change, but I am just going on what I have seen so far from my perspective. 

I do want to keep an open mind but at the same time I can't help expressing what I feel in the present (as you do, of course).

Interesting discussion all round.

-Val 
 

Ah-Chie: Yes, it was, sorry 

Ah-chie, I'm going back a bit in the conversation, but I think you make a good point about how far we should go along with what Magnussen says.  So much of what he says is to hurt and manipulate people, and control is more important than truth.   The big example we're given is the Smallwood case, where he makes out that Lord Smallwood is a paedophile, but it's clear that he wasn't too much in the wrong (he didn't know the girl's age).   As Magnussen's comments are aimed at John and Sherlock, they're likely to be said in a manipulative way - I'm sure the basics of what he says is true, but he would play up whatever side would be the most hurtful and destructive. 

And I'm not saying this as a Mary fan - I have serious doubts about the character.  To be honest, I don't think things hang together very well - there are a couple of fairly major factors pointing to her being a villain, but some other evidence that she might not be.    The commentary has really thrown me.