BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Vhanja · December 21, 2014 10:52 pm

Very true.

I will rephrase myself a bit. I am not saying that Sherlock and John are "as bad" as Mary. They aren't. But Sherlock is no saint, and should not be seen as one either.

SusiGo · December 21, 2014 10:54 pm

He is on the side of the angels but not one of them.

As for Mary, I really do not see her on the side of the angels.

tonnaree · December 21, 2014 11:05 pm

From what is in the show I only see Mary on the side of Mary.

Some say she acts to protect John. I don't see that. She acts to protect herself from losing John.

And to me her shooting Sherlock is nothing like John shooting the cabbie or Sherlock shooting Magnusion. Mary was in no physical danger from Sherlock. He was even offering to help her at the moment she shot him.

silverblaze · December 21, 2014 11:21 pm

I don't think they'll make her good or evil. Probably something in between.

Ah-chie · December 22, 2014 12:12 am

I have to say I am really enjoying reading all the differing views in this thread.

I'm not sure I would be willing to accept Magnussen as a judge of Mary's actions or character. I wouldn't put it pass him to say things just to wind John up (and thus get Sherlock wound up too). After all, he doesn't think he has to prove anything he says or prints. He's a pretty nasty character. He even suggests that John would enjoy seeing the "file" that he said showed that Mary is a "murderer" - do you think he was right about that? So was he just exaggerating when he said Mary was such a terrible person?? Perhaps. I wouldn't put it past him.

I would be far more inclined to believe Sherlock's assessment of Mary as a person which seems pretty positive overall. He clearly seems to trust that Mary did not want him dead and credits her with saving his life (well, he admits there were mixed messages there).

More importantly he seems to be very comforted in knowing that Mary will remain behind with John when he thought he was flying off to his eventual death at the end of HLV. I truly don't think Sherlock would ever want John left with a person he didn't think wasn't worthy of John.

As to the point that Mary doesn't have as straight of moral compass as John or Sherlock...

Sherlock is still shown in HLV as having a personality that works on a very different moral plane that most of us common folk. For example I don't think he had any twinge of conscience about leading Janine into a ruse romance with him (even up to point of buying a engagement ring for her) just to get into CAM's office. It didn't bother him in the least. He is still very capable of doing some very morbid behaviour for "good" reasons. And to me this fits in with Holmes as a Byronic Hero who is dedicated to persuing matters of justice (as he perceives it) over matters of legality or conventional morality.

Mary said she was an assassin but she also said that she killed people who were like Magnussen and I think Sherlock wouldn't have any moral objections to that at all. In fact, I think Sherlock would be in full support of her doing that type of work. And after seeing how Magnussen treated John just before Sherlock shot him dead I agree with it too, within the context of the story (meaning that I am not in the habit of cheering on assassinations).

-Val

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 5:46 am

It can also be argued that Mary, just as Sherlock, develops through the years. Sherlock starts out as darker and more selfish than he becomes (even though that can also be argued seeing as in the very last episode he both tricks Janine and kills Magnussen in cold blood). Mary was an assassin, she is not anymore. Now she actually wants to settle down with husband and child on the way - and she wants that more than anything else.

She also has the sealfish streak that she will do anything it takes to keep John - just as Sherlock will do anything it takes to solve the puzzle or protect John.

So like Sherlock, Mary was more ruthless than she is now. Seems John has a magic touch when it comes to being the moral compass of grey characters.

besleybean · December 22, 2014 6:56 am

Yes for Mary, but Sherlock has become a muderer!

SusiGo · December 22, 2014 7:55 am

Vhanja wrote:
So like Sherlock, Mary was more ruthless than she is now. Seems John has a magic touch when it comes to being the moral compass of grey characters.

I think she suffered a major relapse when she appeared dressed like that in Magnussen's office (i.e. she had kept her dress and weapon or got the gear from somewhere), shot Sherlock and threatened him afterwards at least twice. And what is more, we are made to believe that she had changed before she met John.

This is a big difference: With Sherlock we can see how he changes through John's influence whereas Mary starts out as a lovely, funny woman and drastically changes in HLV. Because I think that in HLV there is nothing left of the Mary we see in TEH, even before the incident in Magnussen's office. IMO in her case there is a development from white to dark grey over the three episodes.

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 8:00 am

I don't think Mary was ever white. I don't think she suffered any relaps (like Sherlock did after two years away from John). She was always that person, we (nor Sherlock and John) just didn't know it.

And I think Sherlock went from white (TSoT) to dark grey (TLV) in one episode.

gently69 · December 22, 2014 8:12 am

Vhanja wrote:
I don't think Mary was ever white.

Speculation. But we were SHOWN something different in TEH and TSoT. I first take my opinion from what I can see. And there wasn't shown anything about Mary's past. Apart from Sherlock's deductions. But who would have guessed that she was an assassin, then?

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 8:16 am

I don't think she was ever white because even if none of us saw it or knew it, she still was who she was. She didn't become an assassin in TLV, she always had been.

gently69 · December 22, 2014 8:33 am

I am talking about what I can SEE. And I don't SEE her in TEH and TSoT turning grey. For me it was a shock, her transformation from white to dark grey in HLV. I am only talking about visual facts.

SolarSystem · December 22, 2014 11:44 am

tonnaree wrote:
From what is in the show I only see Mary on the side of Mary.

Some say she acts to protect John. I don't see that. She acts to protect herself from losing John.

And to me her shooting Sherlock is nothing like John shooting the cabbie or Sherlock shooting Magnusion. Mary was in no physical danger from Sherlock. He was even offering to help her at the moment she shot him.

Yes, yes, yes to all of this. Mary is on the side of Mary, that's saying it all. I don't even need to put a label on her, good or bad, it'll probably turn out that she is something inbetween. But right, she only cares about herself and what's important to her. So if keeping John is important to her, she'll even resort to shooting his best friend. It's all about her - at least from what I know about her so far.

And let me just add that even at the very beginning of TEH I already sensed that I wouldn't really like her. In her very first scene she came across as a bit too self-important to me. Some might say that's because she is a 'strong female character', I just find it unappealing.

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 11:59 am

As I've mentioned before, I like Mary. And I like the relationship between John and Mary. (But I like the relationship between Sherlock and John much more).

I partially agree to Mary being on the side of Mary. I also thinks she's on the side of John. It's obvious that she loves him, and has been a great support for him. She is also very sweet in her eager to get Sherlock and John back together again, something she wouldn't have done if she was only possesive and selfish.

SolarSystem · December 22, 2014 12:13 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I also thinks she's on the side of John. It's obvious that she loves him

It might be obvious to you, but it isn't obvious to me. First and foremost she's in love with herself, that's the way I see her. I'm still not convinced that she met John by chance and they just fell in love like 'normal people' do. Until they give us some more information on her backgound and show me otherwise, I tend to believe that meeting John didn't just sort of happen. Of course there could be various explanations, and maybe they'll show us that she was under pressure and didn't have any other chance. But until then...
And I've said it before, I see no real chemistry between John and Mary and I don't see what I would consider to be love.

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 12:26 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
It might be obvious to you, but it isn't obvious to me. First and foremost she's in love with herself, that's the way I see her. I'm still not convinced that she met John by chance and they just fell in love like 'normal people' do. Until they give us some more information on her backgound and show me otherwise, I tend to believe that meeting John didn't just sort of happen. Of course there could be various explanations, and maybe they'll show us that she was under pressure and didn't have any other chance. But until then...
And I've said it before, I see no real chemistry between John and Mary and I don't see what I would consider to be love.

I always assumed they met during work, at the clinic.

For me, the signs that says she loves him is:

- John wanting to propose to her, saying she's the best thing that could have happened to him. That implies she has been a tremendeous support during his rough years after Sherlock "died".
- Her reactions in the restaurant when Sherlock appears. It's clear she is upset to the point of tears seeing how John struggles.
- Her support for Sherlock and John becoming friends and working together again. If she just wanted John for herself, she could've supported and nourished his anger instead of literally pushing him towards Sherlock.
- Her saying that she would do absolutely everything to keep John, and being clearly upset and crushed when she understands that John is present and the later confrontation
- Her tears and relief when John forgives her, and her clear understanding of him still being angry at her

tonnaree · December 22, 2014 12:29 pm

Vhanja wrote:
It can also be argued that Mary, just as Sherlock, develops through the years. Sherlock starts out as darker and more selfish than he becomes (even though that can also be argued seeing as in the very last episode he both tricks Janine and kills Magnussen in cold blood). Mary was an assassin, she is not anymore. Now she actually wants to settle down with husband and child on the way - and she wants that more than anything else.

She also has the sealfish streak that she will do anything it takes to keep John - just as Sherlock will do anything it takes to solve the puzzle or protect John.

So like Sherlock, Mary was more ruthless than she is now. Seems John has a magic touch when it comes to being the moral compass of grey characters.

Another difference between Mary and Sherlock. Twice Sherlock has been willing to lose John in order to protect him. With his sacrifices in bith TRF and HLV Sherlock has no way of knowing if he'll ever see John again. That is true selflish love.

Mary on the other hand is willing to lie cheat and kill to keep John with her.

SusiGo · December 22, 2014 12:30 pm

- She also becomes sassy by interrupting him and saying that she is the best thing that could happen to him.
- She also sides with Sherlock and thereby hurts John (He needed a confidante.)
- She stresses that she is more clever than John and sees through Sherlock which he does not.
- Her saying that she would do everything to me is a clear-cut threat towards Sherlock. And she only seems crushed when she realises that John is present while she had not qualms about threatening Sherlock when she thought they were alone.

Harriet · December 22, 2014 12:32 pm

Just have a look at the first posting of this thread, Vhanja

Vhanja · December 22, 2014 12:50 pm

SusiGo wrote:
- She also becomes sassy by interrupting him and saying that she is the best thing that could happen to him.
- She also sides with Sherlock and thereby hurts John (He needed a confidante.)
- She stresses that she is more clever than John and sees through Sherlock which he does not.
- Her saying that she would do everything to me is a clear-cut threat towards Sherlock. And she only seems crushed when she realises that John is present while she had not qualms about threatening Sherlock when she thought they were alone.

No. 1 - I see as just being funny and lighten the tension. It's clear the she is practically beaming, knowing that John wil propose to her.
No. 2 - Well, John knew when Sherlock was fibbing already in the first episode, but I don't see her saying that as a sign of not loving John.
No. 3 - She threatens Sherlock because she can't stand losing John's love. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it does speak to me about loving John.

Another important point for me is: John has chosen her. He proposes to her and wants to marry her. He is a grown man who has seen his share of girlfriends - I trust his judgement when it comes to a fitting partner that loves him as much as he loves her. They met when he was going through grief and loss, their time together wouldn't have been just rainbows and unicorns. Still she stuck by him, to the point where he wanted to marry her. I think that says a lot about their relationship.

Harriet - I read through the first page of the thread, and there were some good counter-arguments there too that I have to say I agree with.

The only thing that makes me ponder a bit, is the bonfire scene. We only see Sherlock rushing to the fire and tearing at it to get John out. Mary does nothing but stand on the side and yell John's name. Being a top-trained assassin she is clearly not the kind of person who would panick in a stressed situation - why didn't she tear at the fire just as much as Sherlock did?

tonnaree - True, her love is more selfish. But that doesn't mean she doesn't love him.

Now, I am not defending her because I want to keep her in the show. I hope she dies in the special, there is nothing more important to me than keeping the friendship of Sherlock and John. I want John back in 221B and Mary out of the way. Neither do I deny that Mary is selfish and ruthless. I am just saying that I honestly thinks she has feelings for John, and that she loves him. If she didn't - what would be her motivation for staying with him through thick and thin?

Last edited by Vhanja (December 22, 2014 12:54 pm)