I feel he must have known about Mary too.  He practically kidnaps and interrogates John as soon as he gets involved with Sherlock, so he keeps a close eye on who Sherlock associates with.

I think it's significant that he isn't at the wedding.  I know the wedding would be torture for Mycroft, but they do make a point of him not being there, having Sherlock phone him. 

I like your point about why Mycroft would keep quiet.  I suppose another possiblity would be that he has a plan that is going to play out - that he's letting Magnusson think he can work on those pressure points.   That would be similar to TRF, with Mycroft and Sherlock secretely collaborating, and allowing Moriarty to think something different.  

That all makes sense.  Maybe Sherlock understands that in hospital too, that the way Mary would break the pressure point chain would be to kill Sherlock and remove the link to Mycroft.  He turns it round by telling John and pretending to be on Mary's side - he becomes of more value to her alive than dead, by taking over her role with Magnusson (of getting the files or killing him).  Yes, that's what I was thinking earlier, that it's Sherlock who is at risk, not John.  And I agree that Sherlock would be able to see it pragmatically - that Mary could actually be John's protection, even if she's dangerous to others/Sherlock. 

I'm just wondering why Magnusson would think that Sherlock is alive?   Why he would go to such expense and trouble to plant Mary to find out something which seems unlikely to be true?   It does make sense that Mary is there to watch John for signs of Sherlock ... but why?   I'll have to think about that. 

Sherlock says that Mary befriended Janine to get to Magnusson (and she says that he did the same).  That may or may not be true.  You're saying it may be the other way around, that they befriended each other because Mary was employed by Magnusson?   I'm not sure .... I get the feeling that any dealings Magnusson had with Mary would be very secretive, and that Janine wouldn't be involved.  Hiring an assassin is not the way Magnusson normally operates.  So I think Mary is the instigator of the friendship and Sherlock is telling the truth at that point.

Another Irene parallel - Irene's phone, with the information on it, is her protection and she's likely to be killed without it.  Magnusson is in the same dilemma - the vaults with the information is his protection (which is presumably why Mary didn't kill him outright in the office).  Once he admits that there are no vaults, he's killed. 

Sorry, I am also tired (Friday night) and rambling a bit!
 

Do you know, I'd just typed something about that and deleted it, because I couldn't think it through!  The data stick is the opposite of her protection - it's a risk.  John destroys it. I haven't worked out what that means yet ... although it would make sense that John would want to protect Mary and the baby.  It does seem like another parallel, but in the opposite direction.  The non-existence of Magnusson's imaginary vaults gets him killed, but the destruction of Mary's actual data stick ... oh, I don't know.  

I was also thinking about he head/heart analogy in ASIB (especially with the head/heart shootings).  Irene's phone is her heart, Magnusson's vaults are his head (literally), Mary's data stick is ....?

Last edited by Liberty (September 19, 2014 8:45 pm)

I think Mary got close to John..because she wanted to discover if Moriarty was really dead..she must have a past link with him..maybe she worked for him ...or she did a Dear Jim...get me a new life...maybe she's in trouble with him for not doing her job when sbe thought he was dead...which makes her now on the run from Moriarty ..and Magnusson likely shared info/assests with Moriarty so thats how he found out.

Janine told Sherlock..Magnusson would would  be out that evening..maybe she told Maary the same..and Mary originally intended to search for what he had on her/the memory stick..or make Magnusson hand it over..but ultimately she would have had to kill him to stop him for sure..because he didn't need the proof really.

Seems to me she went along with the blackmail in TEH..but by HLV..he must of wanted something she wasn't prepared  to do which makes me wonder how Magnusson intended to use Sherlock on Mycroft..because Jobn seems to be SH only weak point..so Mary was prob protecting John in a way..

@Mycroft..much as I love him..I think they're doing the government is as likely to be the terrorists as not bash..in keeping with the cynical political disdain for modern society theme...which is very cannon..Mycroft seemed to think Magnusson had his uses..at first and then changed his mind at Christmas...prob he runs the good guys with one hand...and the bad with the other......

my personal fave idea is that Mary was to Moriarty what John is to Sherlock....and while SH@JM  were off pretending to be dead..chasing each other around the world...John@Mary were drawn together here in an elective affinities type way...SH does have the Goethe bust in the bedroom...and that really could be Schillers missing skull... .

Last edited by lil (September 19, 2014 9:15 pm)

The  Mary/Sherlock vulnerability may be another reason Mycroft ordered SH home....

I suppose Magnusson would have been involved in the reporting of Sherlock's downfall in TRF too, as well as his "death" - he might have guessed about Sherlock.  But he hadn't tried to get Mycroft via Sherlock at that time.   It's bothering me a little that Magnusson would go to so much effort (hiring an assassin - I honestly think that seems to be outside his usual MO, making her marry the guy rather than just seduce him, and waiting for 2 years, rather than trying to find another pressure point for Mycroft.  Maybe Mycroft just doesn't have any other pressure points). 

Did Magnusson tell Mary to marry John, hence the flashy wedding?  Was she manipulative enough that she could get John to propose within months?  (Possible - he was vulnerable).   Or was it the other way round - Mary fell for John and married him and the very public, showy wedding was a big FU to Magnusson?   (Why would John have wanted a big wedding like that when he had no family there and neither did Mary?).

I was thinking that Magnusson staged the confrontation in his office by feeding information to both Sherlock and Mary, but maybe it was an accident - both are getting their information Janine, but only Sherlock was the intended recipient.   I thought that Mary believed Magnusson would be in his office and that's why she was threatening him, but it could be that she was looking for her files.  It's odd that she would think her files would be there and not at Appledore, but Sherlock also thinks the letters are there.   That's because Magnusson showed the letters to him.   So I wonder if Mary was shown something to make her believe the files were in the office. 

@ Lil, really interesting ideas but I don't want Moriarty to have faked his death!  I also preferred Magnusson as a villain, and he couldn't have faked his death.    I'll be disappointed if Moriarty is the archvillain in the next series.  I'd be delighted if it was Mary. 

I don't know how Magnusson was planning to use Sherlock against Mycroft.  Possibly set Sherlock up as a traitor (which is what almost happens).  But I'm not sure how he'd use that as leverage (and Mycroft is very good at getting Sherlock off charges).    What was he going to say to Mycroft?  Perhaps it would hinge on whether Magnusson would give evidence against Sherlock or not, so he could hold that over Mycroft.  But it seems a little weak. 

@ Lil, that's a great point about Mary protecting John!  Of course - if anything happened to John, the pressure point chain would be broken.  So it's in Magnusson's interests to protect John (but oddly enough, not Mary's, from that point of view).   If Mary wants to break the chain and doesn't want to hurt John, then the obvious move is up the chain to kill Sherlock.  No wonder Sherlock is scared of her!  And no wonder Magnusson had people standing by at the bonfire. John was never at risk.

John isn't Sherlock's only weak point, but I think he's the weakest weak point, the one Magnusson chooses to use.  It's funny that Sherlock, despite the image he usually projects, has more weak points than anybody else! 

Last edited by Liberty (September 20, 2014 6:28 am)

I'm finally getting to catch up. This is a brilliant discussion! 

Okay, so here´s my theory about the confrontation. I requires a little suspension of disbelief regarding the leverage-chain, but not much more than the actual show so I feel safe to continue with it ;p. I don´t say I think that´s what actually happened, but it would explain many things I keep wondering about so that´s my favourite explanation to keep me alive during hiatus so far ^^.
 
It works under the premise that Mary is indeed Magnussen´s plant he introduced for spying on John, and plans to further use as starting point of the leverage-chain to get to Mycroft now as she so conveniently positioned herself close to his main target Sherlock and his pressure point John. She in turn has decided to free herself from his power over her after TSoT (mainly because of the baby, but also because she really wanted to live with John and realized CAM would never leave them alone after the telegram). So, why do all three of them happen to be in the office at the exact same night? Within the framework oft he show I don´t believe in coincidence. So what I think could have happened instead:
 
Mary installed a camera or secretly bugged 221b on Magnussen´s order when she was so concerned to get both the guys away from „the wedding business“ in TSoT.
So up until the scene with Mycroft, John and Sherlock in 221b in the beginning of HLV Magnussen was aware that

a) Janine had some kind of relationship with Sherlock
b) John provided an excellent pressure point for Sherlock (he made quite some effort to test that)

When he listened to what happened between Mycroft, John and Sherlock at the morning after the drug-den, he became aware of two more facts:

a) Sherlock´s drug abuse is no actual pressure point but a set-up
b) Sherlock indeed proves to be an excellent pressure point for Mycroft, because look at how he cares about his junkie little brother. Dropping every important government-business to lecture him and search his bedroom.

So now he feels secure enough to get his leverage-chain going. He wants to set up Sherlock against Mycroft via claiming his ownership of the Watsons, but in a way that won´t make Mycroft suspicious. He knows Mycroft keeps and eye on Sherlock, and chances are he is somehow tapping 221b, too. So he plans to get Sherlock into his office without Mycroft suspecting anything, as this is probably one of the few places in the world even Mycroft Holmes has no access to. The next moment he sets off to visit 221b and lure Sherlock into the trap by showing him the fake documents and -via Janine- letting him know he will be out this night (he probably knows he hast he ID-card already). That´s why Magnussen was in the office that night.
 
Mary, however, had other plans. She knows Magnussen´s plan is about to happen that night, either because Magnussen as her boss told her, or because she saw what happened between them that morning, too. So she knows both Magnussen and Sherlock (and quite probably also John) will be in the office that night. She wants to free herself from Magnussen´s influence by a) retrieving whatever he has on her and/or b) breaking the leverage chain via eliminating Sherlock as the connecting link between her family and Mycroft. So she breaks in the same night, lets Janine open the doors for Sherlock and then knocks her and the security guy out to leave some casualties for John to take care of (she has to keep him out of everything as much as possible). She threatens CAM to give her back everything he has on her, but as it´s all in his mindpalace of course he can´t give her much (maybe the A.G.R.A.-stick). So she knows it´s plan b, kill off Sherlock. She orders CAM upstairs, where she knows Sherlock will enter alone, because John´s job is to save the lives downstairs (foreshadowed in TSoT). When Sherlock enters she confirms if John is really in the building (else it would have been a head-shot), is slightly thrown off by Sherlock´s sincere offer to help her, but knows she has no choice to ever explain herself without the two oft hem resenting her and so shoots him as soon as he takes a step forward (she doesn´t shoot him in the head to delay John and to keep him off a murder investigation, which would also mean police sniffing around in their house and life).

If Sherlock hadn´t miraculously pulled through her plan would have worked and their little family would have been out of CAMs focus for the time being, at least until he felt he required her special services again.

a) In my head Mary sneaked up to her from behind while she was looking at the computer ^^.

b) I don´t think she knew, or else she would have shot him. Magnussen probably said that he didn´t have anything at the office, that he kept it in his vaults. Maybe just everyone kept quiet between the shooting and Appledore, Magnussen because Sherlock offered to bring him Mycroft anyway and Mary because she was so anxious about John leaving her, preoccupied by her progressing pregnancy and busy making plans for another attempt to retrieve Magnussen´s proof against her.

Good point there, Liberty. Why did Mary bring the stick when she only expected to confront Sherlock alone? Was she absolutely sure she would get her way and this precious piece of information would never ever get into the wrong hands? Which would belittle it actually as piece of trust to be handed to John...