BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Zatoichi · September 18, 2014 9:29 pm

Right?

RavenMorganLeigh · September 18, 2014 9:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
So he must have known Mary would go to Sherlock and not to the police. Does that suggest that he knew who Mary was already?

Well, yes-- he'd have to have known. But, what I want to know is, why? It would be really interesting if she had something on him....

RavenMorganLeigh · September 18, 2014 9:43 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Of course. I find it very suspicious that it is Mary who gets the message, decodes it, runs to Sherlock, directs him to the bonfire. Might be a stylistic means but in the light of what we learn later about Mary it is really odd.

Yep. Maybe it was a lure, both for her--- and Sherlock.

lil · September 18, 2014 11:54 pm

Magnusson planned and watched every aspect of Johns abduction....of course he told Mary...take it to SH and John won't be hurt....
Why the F didn't she go rescue John herself....she decoded the skip code already...going to Baker St..wasting time...she was more capable of rescue than Sherlock.....
She was Magnussons puppet..interesting that she was offered a choice....James...or John...

Last edited by lil (September 18, 2014 11:55 pm)

besleybean · September 19, 2014 5:31 am

Youi don't think Mary is Jim's sister?!

Liberty · September 19, 2014 5:41 am

So you think he's sending her a signal? Like the telegram (which of course must show that he already knows her background - silly me).   She wouldn't go to the police, but going to Sherlock might give him a clue as to her identity.   Or is he sending a message to Sherlock by using Mary? What message? Trying to see if he can guess about Mary? Because if Magnusson knows, it must seem odd that Sherlock hasn't picked up on something right under his nose.

He had people standing to by, so he believed it was a possibility that Sherlock wouldn't save John and I wonder where he thought the weak link was - Mary might not approach Sherlock?

Yes, I'm sure he got the phone number from Janine. I think Janine is being used all along.   I wondered about why Mary arrives at Magnusson's office at the same time as Sherlock. I'm pretty sure that Janine fed Sherlock the information that Magnusson would be out that night (and Magnusson goads him into breaking into the office by showing him letters). It seems likely that Janine fed Mary a story that made her choose that night too. But why would Magnusson want them both to arrive on the same night? Was he planning a confrontation all along?

Also, the fact that Mary had Janine as her bridesmaid showed that she was planning something for Magnusson for a long time.   So, despite the new identity, she hadn't quite given up her old life, even if she was just tying up a loose end.    Janine being bridesmaid suggests a long-standing relationship (possibly from before John, even).

Last edited by Liberty (September 19, 2014 7:12 am)

Zatoichi · September 19, 2014 8:45 am

I like your train of thought.. I´m wondering the same, but can´t make sense of it yet.

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 8:55 am

It is confusing. I am still thinking about the telegram, the overly familiar tone and the fact that Sherlock does not show any reaction whatsoever. When Lady Blackwood contacts him he should get suspicious at the latest.
When watching TEH yesterday something else struck me - when watching HLV we assume that Lady Blackwood consults Sherlock shortly before the story with drug den and Magnussen etc. begins. In TEH, however, we see a headling regarding the parliamentary investigation into Magnussen's dealings. So it was under way seven or eight months before the wedding. What if Lady Blackwood contacted Sherlock much earlier and he was well into the investigation during TSoT? This probably makes no sense whatsoever. Just crossed my mind.

Zatoichi · September 19, 2014 9:09 am

Liberty wrote:
Also, the fact that Mary had Janine as her bridesmaid showed that she was planning something for Magnusson for a long time. So, despite the new identity, she hadn't quite given up her old life, even if she was just tying up a loose end. Janine being bridesmaid suggests a long-standing relationship (possibly from before John, even).

Exactly, usually you don´t choose just any new aquaintance for your bridesmaid but your bestie. And ex-assassin-in-hiding Mary just incidentially being besties with the PA of the single most influential media mogul is.. well, not impossible within the Sherlock-universe, but could also be a build-up for a revelation about their connection.

One possible thought: Magnussen wanted Mycroft all along. He says in his little speech about leverage that because he owns Mary he owns Mycroft. So maybe because he couldn´t own John (him being all honorable and upright, as he points out while Mary holds a gun at his head) he introduced Mary as the weak link in this chain. He probably guessed that Sherlock was alive, because in "Many happy returns" his newspapers report about the cases Sherlock solved - And if Anderson could make the connection, maybe Magnussen could, too.. Not very elaborated a theory yet.. and it still doesn´t explain why they should set up the confrontation.. but yeah, there you go.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 19, 2014 9:17 am)

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 9:17 am

I like these thoughts. There seems to be so much more to Mary and the whole Magnussen-Janine-John-Sherlock-Mycroft (and Moriarty?) thing.

SolarSystem · September 19, 2014 9:36 am

I also like your thoughts, Zatoichi. Magnussen is introduced at the end of TEH and in HLV explains that he's been responsible for throwing John into the bonfire. He also explains that he wanted to get to Mycroft through Sherlock-John-Mary. So he must have known about Mary's background in TEH already - and maybe it was even him who planted her on John. She did play along for a certain while because he had information about her past, but then in HLV for some reason it somehow got too much and she wanted out... maybe CAM wanted her to do something that she wasn't willing to do? Maybe something that would have been far worse than shooting Sherlock?

Last edited by SolarSystem (September 19, 2014 9:38 am)

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 9:45 am

This is getting really interesting. So what if Magnussen planted her on John and it got more serious than he/they had planned with a wedding and all that? So he gave her a warning at the wedding that he was still in the background and had something on her, maybe even about her family.
This would make Mary more interesting and diverse IMO - not a complete sinister villain but not a lovely girl with just that tiny spot on her past either.

SolarSystem · September 19, 2014 9:57 am

It's getting interesting indeed.
The wedding might also have been part of Magnussen's plan all along - tie Mary as close to John as possible, that makes for an even better pressure point in order to get to Mycroft. But maybe there really were feelings involved on Mary's part at the wedding, maybe she forgot, at least for a while, why she was supposed to marry John... and then there came that little note from CAM. It would make her more interesting indeed. It would give Mofftiss the chance to explain quite a few things about her, and this again would give some of us the chance to understand at least some of the things she did a little better.

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 10:27 am

This is true. And then there is the interesting question of when Sherlock knew what about her. This might also help to explain his behaviour in the 221B scene in HLV …

Zatoichi · September 19, 2014 10:37 am

What if the plan was to make John fall for her and then use him for leverage, but then she fell for John, too? Kind of like a parallel to the Irene-Sherlock-story..

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 19, 2014 10:38 am)

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 10:52 am

Yes. But this would mean that she must have regarded Sherlock as a threat from the very first moment and that she befriended him in order to control him. Because then she would not only have to hide her past but also her plans with Magnussen.

Zatoichi · September 19, 2014 11:02 am

Yes, I think so. I think for her he was a threat but it was necessary for the plan to be in his good books. How very convenient that she could make it look as if she "talked John around" to return to Sherlock, because she really didn´t.. he would have returned anyway when the first anger was gone. For me her kind of condescending friendliness towards Sherlock would make a lot of sense if she thought she knew something he didn´t and she was controlling him (and subtly pricking him for the fun of it). Maybe she even was a little fond of him, but surely not enough to prevent her shooting him in the chest.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 19, 2014 11:03 am)

SusiGo · September 19, 2014 11:07 am

Zatoichi wrote:
Yes, I think so. I think for her he was a threat but it was necessary for the plan to be in his good books. How very convenient that she could make it look as if she "talked John around" to return to Sherlock, because she really didn´t.. he would have returned anyway when the first anger was gone. For me her kind of condescending friendliness towards Sherlock would make a lot of sense if she thought she knew something he didn´t and she was controlling him (and subtly pricking him for the fun of it). Maybe she even was a little fond of him, but surely not enough to prevent her shooting him in the chest.

This is one of the best theories about Mary so far. And it makes a lot of sense in many ways. Now we have to integrate Mycroft somehow. We cannot exclude that Magnussen has something more than Sherlock against him. This would explain why Mycroft is so reluctant to do something about Magnussen although there is even a parliamentary commission looking into his dealings. And it would make Sherlock being shot and shooting Magnussen even more dramatic.

Liberty · September 19, 2014 5:38 pm

I'm loving this thread at the moment! I have a feeling it is going to explain some of TSOT for me. For instance, I was thinking about what you said earlier, Zatoichi, about Mary shooting Sherlock in the chest rather than the head because it would delay John. I love that idea - of course, that's why Sherlock is alone in the first place, because John is attending to casualties. I was thinking - it's foreshadowed in TSOT when Sherlock talks about John saving lives, right in front of Mary (which always seemed odd to me as Sherlock is usually the saver of lives - except perhaps in the rare occasion when John has to act as a doctor on their cases, an occasion which Mary sets up by making Sherlock a casualty rather than a corpse). And yes, Mary having to "court" Sherlock explains some of TSOT. I still really want to know if Sherlock was completely innocent (as he seems to be) - did he really manage to miss the obvious signs? Or did he have his own plan, that backfired in Magnusson's office?

So we are saying that Magnusson hired Mary to get to Mycroft through John and Sherlock? While she was freelance, he contracted her to become John's pressure point? And then she falls for John and wants to pull out? Or perhaps, just wants to change the method? It might help explain why she really couldn't go to Sherlock for help. Is that why Magnusson is putting pressure on her? Is that why he wanted to escalate things by staging a meeting at this office?

Was the pregnancy the point when she changed her mind, do you think? Does Sherlock know something and is he trying to win her over with his little speech and vow?

Last edited by Liberty (September 19, 2014 5:41 pm)

SolarSystem · September 19, 2014 6:24 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Now we have to integrate Mycroft somehow.

I'm watching TEH again right now, and I stumbled over Mycroft telling Sherlock when he asks him about John at the beginning: "I've kept a weather eye on him, of course."
So. Mycroft must have known about Mary, he just must have. He must have known not only that she is John's girlfriend, he also must have known about her background. Nobody can make me believe that he wouldn't have his people check her out.
So, I am assuming that Mycroft knew about her past. And if the theory about Magnussen planting her on John is true, then Mycroft also knew about that. In HLV he explains to Sherlock why he doesn't do anything about Magnussen, and that would also explain (to me) why he didn't do anything about Mary - or why he didn't tell Sherlock/John about her true identity. Mycroft didn't do or say anything because at the same time that would have meant doing something against Magnussen - and as Mycroft says himself, that is out of the question.