What scene is that?  It's not coming to me.

Good points about how well John knows Sherlock.  It's very harsh I suppose that without truly knowing him he has blind faith in him, and then that faith is tested to the extreme.   Poor John.  Yes, I think he would think about that conversation at the hospital.  Of course, Sherlock needed him to go, and it was necessary that he didn't understand Sherlock at that point.  At that point, their partnership is disrupted too - John is no longer an assistant but an inconvenience (in terms of Sherlock's work) - a weak point and a way for Moriarty to manipulate Sherlock.   There is nothing John can or could have done to help.   But he doesn't know that. 

Anyway, I meant that he must have been rather tortured and conflicted after the death.  And I think he half-believed Sherlock was alive for a long time too.   So Mary doesn't see a normal grieving process but that's because of the manner of Sherlock's death rather than the fact of it. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 13, 2014 11:14 am)

Oh yes, thank you!

I was thinking of Sherlock at Magnusson's waiting for the helicopters to come so that he can kill Magnusson publicly.  Presumably to make it absolutely clear that he's murdering Magnusson (not John - it's John's gun and both would be suspects if it had happened earlier).  I just realised that he foreshadows this when he tells the story about Mary - he says that Mary didn't shoot Magnusson because she didn't want John to be a suspect. 

I am certainly open to the idea(and have said so before!) that Mary is a plant...but even then, she could have changed her mind and really fallen for John.

It's Sherlock who gives the story about Mary not wanting to be a suspect, though (not Mary).  And he does exactly the same thing (well, not exactly the same - he says Mary spares Magnusson so John won't be a suspect.  And Sherlock shoots Magnusson publicly so John won't be a suspect.    I think you're right that John wouldn't be convicted of murder in either case - not evidence in the first case, and Sherlock taking responsibility in the second case.   But in both cases he would come under suspicion.  At Magnusson's he'd be in his office with two bodies and two unconscious victims who didn't see their attacker.  He'd be the obvious suspect, so Sherlock's story does make a little sense.   And at Appledore, even if Sherlock had confessed, it would have been John's gun which was (illegally?) brought to Appledore and used - perhaps aiding and abetting would be a possible charge. 

I thought there was an irony in him telling the story before going on to do the same thing.  It's almost as if he knew ... or if thinking of the first story put the idea in his head.

SolarSystem wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Anyway, I meant that he must have been rather tortured and conflicted after the death.  And I think he half-believed Sherlock was alive for a long time too.   So Mary doesn't see a normal grieving process but that's because of the manner of Sherlock's death rather than the fact of it. 

But everything you say here about Mary and the state John was in when she met him... all of this is assuming that she just met him by chance and maybe really intended at one point to tell him about her past. And then she decided against it because she had seen how Sherlock's death had affected John.
Thing is, I am not convinced she met John by chance. That's too much of a coincidence for me. I tend to believe that she did seek him out for some reason we don't know anything about yet. And that she never intended to tell him the truth.
 

OK, I'm confused!  Why does Mary have to have met John by chance for John to be grieving and conflicted?  Whether Mary's a plant or not, she doesn't know John until after Sherlock's death, presumably.

I personally don't think it IS a coincidence, but I don't see how that's affects how John deals with Sherlock's death.

Last edited by Liberty (September 18, 2014 7:34 pm)

I think that would be a very odd coincidence. An undercover ex-assassin meets John Watson, the closest person to Sherlock Holmes? Is the universe that lazy?

Indeed. And I just watched TEH again. The whole skip code thing is strange. Such a coincidence that she was near Baker Street and found Sherlock at home. What would have happened if he had been out? Did they observe them? It all fit so neatly - John planning to visit Sherlock, Mary making sure by asking if he did so, her being away for the evening. And the fact that the messages are shown in three colors - did we explain that?

Maybe he wanted to check if John was really Sherlock's pressure point?

I think so. And we have no idea if she met John by coincidence or if she was there at someone's order or even had an aganda of her own. 
 

Of course. I find it very suspicious that it is Mary who gets the message, decodes it, runs to Sherlock, directs him to the bonfire. Might be a stylistic means but in the light of what we learn later about Mary it is really odd.