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June 4, 2014 5:48 pm  #481


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

besleybean wrote:

She's very like both Sherlock and John in that way!

What "old habits" are you referring to here?
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 4, 2014 5:53 pm  #482


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Sherlock losing some of his social graces learned from John.
John being a fighter; using his fists, head etc.


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June 4, 2014 5:57 pm  #483


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

nakahara wrote:

The body language and the facial expression of Mary in that scene speaks of determination to get rid of unwanted witness and of contempt for Sherlock, certainly not of fear. Mary wants to stop Sherlock before he speaks with John, she is certainly not trying to defend herself from him.

If she wanted to get rid of him, she would have shot him when he revealed himself. But she didn't. If she hated Sherlock, why waste her breath in explaining her actions to him and asking him to understand what she did? If she was full of contempt, why not just shoot him? And she didn't. Because she didn't want to kill Sherlock.

I think nobody here is saying that she hates Sherlock. I actually have no idea what her real feelings towards Sherlock are.
She is not shooting him because she hates him, but because something went wrong and he suddenly knows about her. He can reveal her to John, and like she says herself, she doesn't want John to know and would do anything to make sure that John will never know. That's why she shoots at Sherlock in CAM's office and that's why she would do it again. To protect herself. And after Sherlock has left the hospital she certainly doesn't seek him out to have a nice cuppa and a little chat. She wants to make sure that he keeps his mouth shut and doesn't tell John. And she is prepared to shoot at him once more.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 4, 2014 6:06 pm  #484


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

If she wanted to get rid of him, she would have shot him when he revealed himself. But she didn't. If she hated Sherlock, why waste her breath in explaining her actions to him and asking him to understand what she did? If she was full of contempt, why not just shoot him? And she didn't. Because she didn't want to kill Sherlock. 

Sacifical lamb? Sherlock took a step when Mary warned him not to. If you look at the scene in the office, Mary's gun is wobbling and when Sherlock took a step, she in reflex fired. 

Sherlock has killed CAM in cold blood as well as interrogated the cabbie in ASiP. Sherlock isn't harmless. 

@Susigo: Mary is a victim, though. CAM was dangling her past for goodness knows how long. No matter what her past was, she was actually trying to live a normal life. People can talk about how she should take responisble for her actions, but it is not that simple, especially for an intelligence agent. The people who are after her aren't going to give her a fair trial and if she was arrested, the people she is trying to escape from would just get her and take revenge on her. That would not be pretty. The spy world is an unforgivable place. Despite everything, I don't think Sherlock or John want to condemn her to such a fate.

CAM is the villian here. CAM is the one who actually blackmailed someone then in relialtion for Sherlock's interference, revealed the information Lady Smallwood hoped to cover up and her husband committed.suicide. CAM isn't picking on people for justice or anything. He is doing it because of power.
 

Mary didn´t kill Sherlock when he revealed himself because at that time she already knew that her face is being projected on the facade of the Sherlock´s empty house and she feared that her deed would be disclosed to the police that way. She wouldn´t hesitate to shoot him otherwise - like she did the first time (when she actually DID kill him, he only miraculously came back from the dead).

Sorry, but when Sherlock entered CAM´s office, he seemed threatening in the same manner as the stuffed teddy bear does. He paled, his eyes bulged out in surprise, he stuttered and was generally so shocked and scared that there´s no way he was able to provoke the highly trained killer to some panic response. Similarly, what were his words before he "threateningly" moved towards Mary? "Mary, whatever this man has on you, please, let me help." And this is the reason the cold blooded proffesional killer like Mary had short-circuit in her brain and unwillingly shot him? No, I can´t believe it. Such an agent would be useless in any kind of real action - and Mary is supposed to be very good in her dirty proffesion.

You say that Sherlock killed CAM and stepped on cabbie, so that he is dangerous either. Yes, we as an audience know it, but does Mary?
No living soul except Sherlock himself knows what he has done to the cabbie after that man was shot - not even John who escaped immediatly after the deadly shot. So Mary has no reason to fear Sherlock because of that,
Similarly, Sherlock shot CAM dead at the end of the episode - months after his confrontation with Mary. So if Mary is not Sibyl and if she has no skill to predict the future from tarot cards or magical glass ball, she has no reason to fear Sherlock for that either (nothwithstanding the fact that Sherlock only shot CAM because he wanted to protect Mary and John!)

So why would Mary fear Sherlock? What does she really know about him?
In her eyes, he is the man who was beaten to a bloody pulp by her much shorted and unasuming husband - thrice! He is the nervous and hysterical man who obssessed about her marriage arrangements and who, for al his geniality and deductions, absolutely missed the truth about her past. And because she shot him only a week ago, she knows he is weak as a fly in a time of their confrontation. She knows she has the upper hand here. 

I find it an interesting double standard that Sherlock is condemned as a killer after he snapped and shot the person who nastily threatened him and his family, but Mary who ruthlessly murdered dozens of people for MONEY gets a free pass as an innocent little girl and victim just because she smiled sweetly few times and cracked a pair of (secretly malicious) jokes in TEH and TSOT.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 4, 2014 6:23 pm  #485


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

I think Mary knew exactly that Sherlock wouldn't kill her.  

How do you know that?

Actually, good question. I don't know that - and Mary probably really doesn't know that Sherlock won't kill her. Because she just can't imagine that there are people out there who solve problems not by shooting at other people - like she does - but by offering their help. Sherlock offers his help twice, at CAM's office and later at the empty houses. She refuses his help both times. It seems to be absolutely unimaginable for her that there is an alternative to firing a gun at someone when the going gets tough.

And yes, John killed the cabbie, Sherlock killed CAM. But in my opinion they still don't have a lot in common with Mary. They killed in order to protect another person, Mary killed (or in Sherlock's case almost killed) in order to protect herself. Yes, all three of them still are killers. But I take the freedom to take into account why they killed, because in my opinion that does make a difference.

Last edited by SolarSystem (June 4, 2014 6:28 pm)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 4, 2014 6:31 pm  #486


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

nakahara wrote:

Sorry, but when Sherlock entered CAM´s office, he seemed threatening in the same manner as the stuffed teddy bear does. He paled, his eyes bulged out in surprise, he stuttered and was generally so shocked and scared that there´s no way he was able to provoke the highly trained killer to some panic response.
(snip)
In her eyes, he is the man who was beaten to a bloody pulp by her much shorted and unasuming husband - thrice! He is the nervous and hysterical man who obssessed about her marriage arrangements and who, for al his geniality and deductions, absolutely missed the truth about her past. And because she shot him only a week ago, she knows he is weak as a fly in a time of their confrontation. She knows she has the upper hand here. 
(snip)
 

Thank you for articulating this so beautifully!

I don't think, or at least hope, that Sherlock would be fooled by Mary the way he let himself be manipulated by Irene. I really hope that I'm right that season 4 will be about him taking Mary down.

The only problem I have with that theory is that he was going to his death until Moriarty showed up again, leaving John with Mary. Maybe he thought that Mary did love John and that John would be safe now that CAM was dead. But now that he's coming back, Sherlock has a second chance to deal with Mary properly. Hmm...

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 6:33 pm  #487


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

If she really is the baddie..


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June 4, 2014 6:45 pm  #488


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

besleybean wrote:

If she really is the baddie..

She and Janine are totally in cahoots with Moriarty. Too many coincidences surrounding them. Sherlock has learned at his peril to that coincidences are rarely that.

Mary
 


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 6:48 pm  #489


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Agree about Janine there. No way that an innocent bystander is CAM´s employee, Mary´s best friend and Sherlock´s fiancee at the same time! She is up to something. 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 4, 2014 6:58 pm  #490


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

nakahara wrote:

Agree about Janine there. No way that an innocent bystander is CAM´s employee, Mary´s best friend and Sherlock´s fiancee at the same time! She is up to something. 

I have to say that the words 'Sherlock's fiancée' are hilarious. Am I glad I went into this series knowing just about nothing regarding ACD canon because I never saw that coming.

And come on, two dark Irish characters? Coincidence? Nah. The two Moriarties in ACD were both James. Janine is quite close to that name...

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 7:05 pm  #491


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Agree about Janine there. No way that an innocent bystander is CAM´s employee, Mary´s best friend and Sherlock´s fiancee at the same time! She is up to something. 

I have to say that the words 'Sherlock's fiancée' are hilarious. Am I glad I went into this series knowing just about nothing regarding ACD canon because I never saw that coming.

And come on, two dark Irish characters? Coincidence? Nah. The two Moriarties in ACD were both James. Janine is quite close to that name...

Mary

That wicked scene in HLV where Sherlock reveals Janine to John is written in such a way that even I, who read "The adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" many times before, was shocked and it was a minute before it occured to me that Janine = Agatha. Kudos to Steven Moffat! 

And yes, I suspect Janine as Moriarty´s relative either. Her irish accent was quite revealing.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 4, 2014 7:22 pm  #492


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I am really starting to see that I should read the ACD books as there's a lot I'm missing out on by not having done so. That said, I am also not getting spoilers. I watched HLV with a friend who is a huge ACD fan and the minute it was determined that John was heading to the crack den, she said, "Sherlock's going to be there!" When I had seen the ep, that completely surprised me.

But I think I will read them since I have them. I got up the other morning and there was a PDF copy of the entire works in my inbox, sent by a client who was apparently tired of my not getting his jokes. Turns out that if you're a consulant for your national police force and you buy a cottage, you will be asked if you are planning on taking up beekeeping, a little ACD moment in HLV that went completely over my head...

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 7:43 pm  #493


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Wow, your client is funny! 
But I really recommend reading ACD´s books. He is a very good storyteller and you will see many canon references in Sherlock after you do - it makes you appreciate Sherlock some more. I wouldn´t fear spoilers because Moftiss use the original elements of those stories in such a way that it still comes as a surprise when they appear. 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 4, 2014 7:46 pm  #494


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

And you have the joy of nearly dying laughing at th Janine scene!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 4, 2014 7:58 pm  #495


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

nakahara wrote:

Wow, your client is funny! 

I just laughed and laughed and laughed when I got the email from him with the ebook attached.

I actually started to read A Scandal in Bohemia and just a few pages in I caught references used in multiple episodes and series. "It was not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhoorrent to his cold, precise, but admirably balanced mind" is almost word for word a bit of Sherlock's TSOT speech! And then, there's mention of grit in an instrument, which was part of THOB meltdown scene.  And of course, The Woman was used in SIB. I think I am going to have fun reading the source material and appreciate this new version even more!

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 8:01 pm  #496


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

maryagrawatson wrote:

I think I am going to have fun reading the source material and appreciate this new version even more!

Mary

Yes, I believe that you´ll enjoy it! 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

June 4, 2014 8:01 pm  #497


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

besleybean wrote:

And you have the joy of nearly dying laughing at th Janine scene!

The expressions on John's face. OMG. I could watch that scene over and over and over and over again.

(Anyone else catch an interesting bit of Sherlock info, that he likes a long soaks in the tub? Probably a good place to think.)

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 4, 2014 8:03 pm  #498


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Well I for one hope that thinking and washing are all he does in the bath! Tee Hee.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 4, 2014 9:06 pm  #499


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 4, 2014 9:21 pm  #500


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

THIS!!!
Finally a proof that Sherlock´s story about Mary being all concerned about him and calling an ambulance was just a big fat lie....


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

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