BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

REReader · June 16, 2015 8:05 pm

SusiGo wrote:
"We generally follow the trajectory of what Conan Doyle did."

What did he do? He had Watson marry and made the wife disappear more or less from the stories culminating in disposing of her in one sentence. And then making Holmes buy Watson's practice so that he moved back in with him. This is not what I would call a Canon happily ever after for the Watsons.

In the ACD canon, Watson marries Mary Morstan at the end of The Sign of Four and is married and living away from Baker Street for a number of years, going by the stories in which he mentions Mary either by name or as his wife; he is still married at the time of The Final Problem (in which Holmes "dies"). Holmes is missing-presumed-dead for three years, and some time in those three years, Mary dies. Going by the dates in Wikipedia, Watson is married to Mary from 1887 until sometime between 1891 and 1894, so 5 or 6 years, give or take; in the Klinger chronology they marry in 1888 and she dies sometime between 1892 and 1894.

While it is true that ACD refers to Watson's loss in one sentence in The Empty House, it is inaccurate to say that he disposed of her in one sentence, since, as I said, she in mentioned in quite a few of the stories that are set between 1887 and 1891 (in one of which she refers to Watson as "James").

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 8:13 pm

I know. And I meant "dispose of" in the sense of "not explaining what the hell happened to her because it did not matter as long as Holmes and Watson were re-united".

In some manner he had learned of my own sad bereavement, and his sympathy was shown in his manner rather than in his words.

This is all we get in Canon.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 8:26 pm)

Harriet · June 16, 2015 8:26 pm

I bumped the main Mary thread because I feel this here is going off topic again.
General Mary discussions are for the other thread.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 8:26 pm

Thank you, Harriet.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 8:39 pm

In the canon, expression of sentiments is always quickly and superficially treated. See the reunion between Homes and Watson : 10 lines at most.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 8:45 pm

In Canon the relationship between Holmes and Watson is dominant and more important than any other including Watson's marriage. So I would suppose that the same goes for BBC Sherlock, the "Sherlock and John show" in the words of Steven Moffat.

Seeing that this thread has slightly derailed: please have a look at my initial posts which show quite clearly what I think about Mary as a character and the relationship between her and John. And we also have a "Mary - the subject of discussion" thread.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 8:51 pm)

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 9:00 pm

Of course it is... but even if it's the dominant relationship, these are first and foremost detective stories. It's focused on the investigations, not on the relationship itself. Watson marriage didn't stop the adventures (even if, in the final problem, I think he says that since his marriage, Holmes asks him less and less).

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 9:03 pm

Just saw that Schmiezi moved her post, so I will move my answer as well.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 9:16 pm)

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 9:11 pm

They turned her from a background character to a central one ( at least for season 3 ) but a baddie, it's not settled in a manichean way in the show ( arff, here we are again...)

RavenMorganLeigh · June 18, 2015 8:23 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts, lil, very interesting. And it gave me another idea: Most heterosexual relationships on the show either do not work or end sadly:

- John and his various girlfriends
- John and Mary
- Mary and David
- Mrs Hudson and her late husband
- the cabbie who does not live with his family
- Barry Berwick who killed his girlfriend with a knife
- Andy being in love with Soo Lin who gets killed
- all of Molly's attempts at a relationship
(and I think there are more)

In the show the only heterosexual "traditional" marriage/relationship we get that seems to be happy and long-standing is the one between Sherlock's parents (and many people have pointed out the similarities between Mr Holmes and John and Mrs Holmes and Sherlock).

So I think there is a pattern and I trust the writers that they will not do an about-face and use John's marriage of all things to change this pattern.

Good points.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 18, 2015 8:26 pm

lil wrote:
TY for the article link that restarted this Mary conversation Susi , it rang quite true with me.I had posted months ago that something about the support that the Mary John relationship seemed to have after HLV in society and the fandom worried me but couldn't quite reason out why.
There seems to be a sort of make your life with and about the person you have sex with thing going on in series three , and not much importance on other things like honesty, loyalty, trust etc . In modern life , wives and lovers come and go but best friends , they are forever.
So maybe societies idea that your wife or husband should always come first is being questioned and that way too much importance is given to sex which nowadays is cheap.
Of course the baby does complicate things at the end.
I do worry though that the writers don't quite realise what they have done in the way the tumbl comment points out, but I hope so.

Love this post. And, I feel exactly the same.

SusiGo · July 10, 2015 10:25 am

As I said before - if she allegedly loved John so much, I would have been glad to see a little piece of evidence. But no, in 221B she hardly says anything and in the Christmas scene most of the time she comes over as snarky and unrepenting. In the whole of HLV she never behaves kindly or regretful or selfless towards John, not once. And her actions confirm this. I simply do not see the love.

gently69 · July 10, 2015 11:27 am

What exactly do they see then?

SusiGo · July 10, 2015 11:28 am

Swanpride wrote:
But other fans to see it. It's really as easy as that.

Other fans but not all.

lil · July 10, 2015 12:49 pm

Easy banter is rather shallow.They all have that with other people like Greg and Hudders. Understanding? Mary understood exactly what Sherlocks death would do to John when she shot , unlike Sherlock who genuinely didn't realise the emotional impact his faked death would have on John.
Staying around was selfish , she put her own happiness above everyones safety when friends should protect each other and have each others back.
I didnt realise being pretty and funny and cute meant you could get away with murder and shooting anyone that got in the way of your lovelife.

SusiGo · July 10, 2015 12:51 pm

Yes. And with Sherlock and John it was always more than easy banter. From the first day when John saved Sherlock's life and Sherlock proved to John he did not need that cane.

Harriet · July 10, 2015 1:47 pm

May I remind you that these ideas belong to the other Mary thread since they don't discuss Susi's analysis of the episodes?

lil · July 10, 2015 1:51 pm

Yes . I get the impression from everyone involved in Sherlock that ultimately everything is supposed to be funny banter.These people are comedy writers and humour is the backbone even when they do drama and angst.
Mary being so much of a 'blank page' is deliberate , if they gave us reasons to sympathise or empathise with her , it breaks the humour .
I think some of the discussions and recent posts about S03 and Mary have become a bit Jerry Springer audience ,which is fantastically hilarious , and likely the writers intention. So nice to see a return of the witty satirist.

Additional Edit.
Apologies if OT or thread drift.Seems to be a lot of crossover discussions and its become difficult to keep things straight .

Last edited by lil (July 10, 2015 1:56 pm)

tonnaree · July 10, 2015 2:06 pm

lil wrote:
Additional Edit.
Apologies if OT or thread drift.Seems to be a lot of crossover discussions and its become difficult to keep things straight .

Moffit has the same problem.

SusiGo · July 10, 2015 2:11 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Since Mary never intended to kill Sherlock her shooting him is for me not a sign that she ignores John's feeling. Quite the opposite in fact. That she allowed Sherlock to life shows how much she loves John.

It is not just the intention that counts but also the action. I would prefer to say she did not intend to kill him until she said so herself.