besleybean wrote:

Tho at that point, John had just worked out Sherlock's clue with the perfume...

Indeed; which negates the whole idea of John immediately telling Sherlock to go back to hospital. I suspect that the phone call consisted of him demanding that Sherlock prove it, and Sherlock agreeing to do so at Leinster Gardens, but all I can base that on is his behaviour later on; I have no textual basis of the actual phone call.

Unfortunately, his pattern of ignoring Mrs Hudson came into play later that night as well. Admittedly, he'd spent two years ignoring her, so he'd had lots of practise, but nevertheless he was demonstrating the John who was so wrapped up in himself that he couldn't even manage one phone call to her. He must have known that she was grieving just as much as he was, but he didn't reach out in the way that Lestrade did to him.

I would have much preferred a John who wasn't so egocentric but that is what the writers gave us; I would have much preferred a Mary Morstan who was rather closer to canon as well, but that is what the writers gave us...
 

sj4iy wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Willow wrote:

 
Well, of course you also are forgetting the fact that John completely ignored Mrs Hudson who was trying to get him to answer Sherlock's call; no sign there of him being so concerned that he would immediately tell Sherlock he must go back to hospital immediately.

I do not think that we can sensibly ignore what the writers show us happening in favour of some dialogue we have invented which the writers didn't show us.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. But this has been John's myopic way of dealing, so this is actually in character. One. Thought. At. A. Time. :-) Bless him. 

Here's the other thing: John has (mostly) gotten a pass for beating the stuffing out of Sherlock when he first returned, because he had been grieving so much that it almost ruined his life. So, we're supposed to believe that John is near-crippled by his love for Sherlock. So by HLV, they are supposed to have patched things up, Sherlock is the acknowldged best freind/best man. 

That's why it doesn't make sense that John would ignore Sherlock's agony and distress, and even threaten him. 

If Sherlock knows that John is like this, no wonder he called his own ambulance, because he knew he couldn't depend on John to put his physical welfare first when he's emotionally compromised. 

Oh, that's ridiculous.  It's more that John knows that he's never been able to make Sherlock do something he doesn't want to do.  He's never been able to up to this point, so how is he going to make him now?  In any case, Sherlock wasn't keeling over or passing out, and while he was in pain, he was still able to walk, talk and think coherently, so it's not as if John were ignoring a dying man.  Hell, 5 years ago I was in worse shape than Sherlock for two months, saw 4 doctors and 2 nurses (even called a medical hotline) and none of them were remotely worried about my condition even though I was pale, had lost 40 lbs, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs and was constantly throwing up.  I had to go to an emergency room to get diagnosed with not one, but two diseases that put me in the ICU for a week because I was on the verge of having a stroke.  I can COMPLETELY believe that John, seeing that Sherlock was in pain but not falling over, would be more worried about what's going on with his wife.  Most people would in that situation.

 
But John was ignoring a dying man; Sherlock was displaying clear signs that he was bleeding out.  It doesn't take very long to bleed to death, and it takes a few seconds to check the patients' capillary refill, which is how paramedics and medics do it without expensive kit.

Benedict did a superb job of researching and acting it, and the makeup artists were extremely good as well. But it was a textbook presentation of someone with severe internal bleeding, and the life expectancy of someone with severe internal bleeding is exceedingly short. They will die without immediate surgery and blood transfusions, which is what Sherlock's long suffering surgeons would have provided him with back at the hospital.

sj4iy wrote:

Willow wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Oh, that's ridiculous.  It's more that John knows that he's never been able to make Sherlock do something he doesn't want to do.  He's never been able to up to this point, so how is he going to make him now?  In any case, Sherlock wasn't keeling over or passing out, and while he was in pain, he was still able to walk, talk and think coherently, so it's not as if John were ignoring a dying man.  Hell, 5 years ago I was in worse shape than Sherlock for two months, saw 4 doctors and 2 nurses (even called a medical hotline) and none of them were remotely worried about my condition even though I was pale, had lost 40 lbs, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs and was constantly throwing up.  I had to go to an emergency room to get diagnosed with not one, but two diseases that put me in the ICU for a week because I was on the verge of having a stroke.  I can COMPLETELY believe that John, seeing that Sherlock was in pain but not falling over, would be more worried about what's going on with his wife.  Most people would in that situation.

 
But John was ignoring a dying man; Sherlock was displaying clear signs that he was bleeding out. It doesn't take very long to bleed to death, and it takes a few seconds to check the patients' capillary refill, which is how paramedics and medics do it without expensive kit.

Benedict did a superb job of researching and acting it, and the makeup artists were extremely good as well. But it was a textbook presentation of someone with severe internal bleeding, and the life expectancy of someone with severe internal bleeding is exceedingly short. They will die without immediate surgery and blood transfusions, which is what Sherlock's long suffering surgeons would have provided him with back at the hospital.

What 'clear signs' other than pain?  How is John going to look at Sherlock and know that he's internally bleeding?  You can't tell me that you would see someone acting the way Sherlock was acting was a 'clear sign' that he was bleeding internally.  Unless John had been taking his blood pressure the entire time and monitoring his vitals, he wouldn't have known.  And in any case, it wouldn't have matter...if Sherlock didn't want to go to the hospital, he couldn't have forced him to.  Sherlock would have had to pass out first before John could have forced him go to a hospital.  Thousands of people die from internal bleeding which isn't caught in time because doctors and nurses can't tell whether or not a patient is bleeding internally until it's too late...and many of these people are in the hospital, on monitors, with people watching them, and they STILL die because people quickly pass from "everything's normal" to "nearly dead" very quickly.  Like what apparently happens to Sherlock.

In any case, it's a fictional show...if you are going to be picky about the 'realism' in it, you would have to start a long, long list.  It's hyper-realistic...everything is amped up for dramatic purposes.  The point, which everyone seems to be missing, was that Sherlock wanted John to know the truth, and he was willing to endure severe pain and injuring himself even further to do so.

Errr.... maybe we think he should have noticed because he was a Trauma Surgeon? As long as he's been practicing medicine, shouldn't something like that be second nature? Like checking on your patient? The one that flatlined? 

sj4iy wrote:

Willow wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Oh, that's ridiculous.  It's more that John knows that he's never been able to make Sherlock do something he doesn't want to do.  He's never been able to up to this point, so how is he going to make him now?  In any case, Sherlock wasn't keeling over or passing out, and while he was in pain, he was still able to walk, talk and think coherently, so it's not as if John were ignoring a dying man.  Hell, 5 years ago I was in worse shape than Sherlock for two months, saw 4 doctors and 2 nurses (even called a medical hotline) and none of them were remotely worried about my condition even though I was pale, had lost 40 lbs, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs and was constantly throwing up.  I had to go to an emergency room to get diagnosed with not one, but two diseases that put me in the ICU for a week because I was on the verge of having a stroke.  I can COMPLETELY believe that John, seeing that Sherlock was in pain but not falling over, would be more worried about what's going on with his wife.  Most people would in that situation.

 
But John was ignoring a dying man; Sherlock was displaying clear signs that he was bleeding out. It doesn't take very long to bleed to death, and it takes a few seconds to check the patients' capillary refill, which is how paramedics and medics do it without expensive kit.

Benedict did a superb job of researching and acting it, and the makeup artists were extremely good as well. But it was a textbook presentation of someone with severe internal bleeding, and the life expectancy of someone with severe internal bleeding is exceedingly short. They will die without immediate surgery and blood transfusions, which is what Sherlock's long suffering surgeons would have provided him with back at the hospital.

What 'clear signs' other than pain?  How is John going to look at Sherlock and know that he's internally bleeding?  You can't tell me that you would see someone acting the way Sherlock was acting was a 'clear sign' that he was bleeding internally.  Unless John had been taking his blood pressure the entire time and monitoring his vitals, he wouldn't have known.  And in any case, it wouldn't have matter...if Sherlock didn't want to go to the hospital, he couldn't have forced him to.  Sherlock would have had to pass out first before John could have forced him go to a hospital.  Thousands of people die from internal bleeding which isn't caught in time because doctors and nurses can't tell whether or not a patient is bleeding internally until it's too late...and many of these people are in the hospital, on monitors, with people watching them, and they STILL die because people quickly pass from "everything's normal" to "nearly dead" very quickly.  Like what apparently happens to Sherlock.

In any case, it's a fictional show...if you are going to be picky about the 'realism' in it, you would have to start a long, long list.  It's hyper-realistic...everything is amped up for dramatic purposes.  The point, which everyone seems to be missing, was that Sherlock wanted John to know the truth, and he was willing to endure severe pain and injuring himself even further to do so.

 
But I can. Signs is a technical term; it reflects what you see. Generations of doctors have been taught to read signs by the simple act of standing at the end of bed, knowing that their exams will also include sections where they will be required to tell the examiner what they see from the end of the bed. Diagnostic skills derive from the unusually high quality of observatory skills.

I have explained in previous posts why the diagnosis is correct; I appreciate that your time is your own but it is unreasonable to expect that I will type them all over again, simply because you don't like my conclusions. Had you bothered to read them then you would not be sounding off, since everything you have said has already been asked and answered.

And no: the stuff about it's only a tv programme simply indicates that you have run out of meaningful arguments.

Willow wrote:

lil wrote:

I admit to not being a tv person..not watched tv much in decades....
Many times I see a ....its just tv reply..and ok I understand most tv is a watch..be entertained..turn off..forget it format.
However in a forum to discuss a tv program, which raises many questions and mysterys , that answer could render every discussion here moot?
Sherlock deserves more....or why are we here?
Some tv is worthy of more consideration...some tv writing is more than..brainwashing propaganda or advertisement...
BBC Sherlock S01 and S02 are now BA worthy works of art with thesis , metas , and media studies widely accepted.
Sure all theatre is exaggerated for effect...even Shakespeare...so isn't our job to look for the effect?
Saying....it's just tv....looking for meaning is pointless....is to belittle the whole thing.

I agree entirely; about the only thing I always watched is Montalbano before Sherlock itself took off, and I live in hope that Moftiss could do it; t hat superb long run that Montalbano has had surely is an inspiration


 

I watch all my "TV" on the computer-- and about half of it is BBC or ITV. And of course, I analyze the holy heck out of all of it.  :-)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Errr.... maybe we think he should have noticed because he was a Trauma Surgeon? As long as he's been practicing medicine, shouldn't something like that be second nature? Like checking on your patient? The one that flatlined? 

You would think so, but it really isn't that simple. There have been books written about why doctors make this sort of mistakes and it's a growing field of research. It's not at all uncommon for signs of deterioration to be missed in hospital. It's only recently that measures like early warning scores have been implemented to help us catch people before they crash. That improved things somewhat but still many will slip through the net.

I don't think that it was obvious from just looking at Sherlock that he was bleeding. What was obvious is that something was at least 'a little bit not good' and needed to be looked into further. That should have prompted John to check his pulse and do few other bits and bobs that would set off more alarm bells.

He didn't see what was going on becouse he wasn't really looking. He was to wraped up in the situation with Mary. Doctoring is not an automatic process. Despite all the training and experience you still need to actively engage brain and focus on what you are doing. It's a different kind of skill compering to driving a car for example, which can be done almost on autopilot even if your mind is not 100% there.

sj4iy wrote:

Willow wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Oh, that's ridiculous.  It's more that John knows that he's never been able to make Sherlock do something he doesn't want to do.  He's never been able to up to this point, so how is he going to make him now?  In any case, Sherlock wasn't keeling over or passing out, and while he was in pain, he was still able to walk, talk and think coherently, so it's not as if John were ignoring a dying man.  Hell, 5 years ago I was in worse shape than Sherlock for two months, saw 4 doctors and 2 nurses (even called a medical hotline) and none of them were remotely worried about my condition even though I was pale, had lost 40 lbs, couldn't walk up a flight of stairs and was constantly throwing up.  I had to go to an emergency room to get diagnosed with not one, but two diseases that put me in the ICU for a week because I was on the verge of having a stroke.  I can COMPLETELY believe that John, seeing that Sherlock was in pain but not falling over, would be more worried about what's going on with his wife.  Most people would in that situation.

 
But John was ignoring a dying man; Sherlock was displaying clear signs that he was bleeding out. It doesn't take very long to bleed to death, and it takes a few seconds to check the patients' capillary refill, which is how paramedics and medics do it without expensive kit.

Benedict did a superb job of researching and acting it, and the makeup artists were extremely good as well. But it was a textbook presentation of someone with severe internal bleeding, and the life expectancy of someone with severe internal bleeding is exceedingly short. They will die without immediate surgery and blood transfusions, which is what Sherlock's long suffering surgeons would have provided him with back at the hospital.

What 'clear signs' other than pain?  How is John going to look at Sherlock and know that he's internally bleeding?  You can't tell me that you would see someone acting the way Sherlock was acting was a 'clear sign' that he was bleeding internally.  Unless John had been taking his blood pressure the entire time and monitoring his vitals, he wouldn't have known.  And in any case, it wouldn't have matter...if Sherlock didn't want to go to the hospital, he couldn't have forced him to.  Sherlock would have had to pass out first before John could have forced him go to a hospital.  Thousands of people die from internal bleeding which isn't caught in time because doctors and nurses can't tell whether or not a patient is bleeding internally until it's too late...and many of these people are in the hospital, on monitors, with people watching them, and they STILL die because people quickly pass from "everything's normal" to "nearly dead" very quickly.  Like what apparently happens to Sherlock.

In any case, it's a fictional show...if you are going to be picky about the 'realism' in it, you would have to start a long, long list.  It's hyper-realistic...everything is amped up for dramatic purposes.  The point, which everyone seems to be missing, was that Sherlock wanted John to know the truth, and he was willing to endure severe pain and injuring himself even further to do so.

^^^^^^^^^ thank you.

Poor John.

I totally should have posted this here; but here goes-- this is an awesome meta on exactly what happened when Sherlock was shot. It kinda makes it look like Mary, indeed intended to kill Sherlock, not perform surgery on him,  http://archiveofourown.org/works/1235479/chapters/2535226

 

Willow wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I totally should have posted this here; but here goes-- this is an awesome meta on exactly what happened when Sherlock was shot. It kinda makes it look like Mary, indeed intended to kill Sherlock, not perform surgery on him,  http://archiveofourown.org/works/1235479/chapters/2535226

 

Awesome, indeed; it's great to have it set out so carefully and comprehensively. 
 

 
Yes when the writer wrote about breathing pattern..had Sherlock been breathing differently....the shot would break his heart, it kinda hit me as common sense without even understanding all the medi mumbo.
The details in the filming show how seriously they all took this aspect.
Looks like the writers and directors asked doctors for a lucky to live shot / medi consult from this.
Which would mean they think Mary shot to kill.