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February 23, 2014 2:54 pm  #41


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Maybe she's genuinely sad and just putting on a brave face for both John and Sherlock.


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February 23, 2014 3:10 pm  #42


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

A bit like Sherlock shooting CAM, knowing it meant a life sentence for him and hardly ever seeing John again.


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February 23, 2014 4:03 pm  #43


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I mean this is the nicest possible way - and again it's discomfort with what the writers did with Mary that's my main problem here - but the excuse of it being the only way to keep John, or not wanting to be a single Parent, will never make me swallow the fact that she shot and almost killed his best friend!
Not even in TV land can I find that excusable.
Had Sherlock been planning to kill one of them, then fair enough.
But because he might land her in the divorce court? No, I'm sorry - it just doesn't do it for me.

Last edited by Tinks (February 23, 2014 4:04 pm)


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 23, 2014 4:17 pm  #44


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Tinks wrote:

I mean this is the nicest possible way - and again it's discomfort with what the writers did with Mary that's my main problem here - but the excuse of it being the only way to keep John, or not wanting to be a single Parent, will never make me swallow the fact that she shot and almost killed his best friend!
Not even in TV land can I find that excusable.
Had Sherlock been planning to kill one of them, then fair enough.
But because he might land her in the divorce court? No, I'm sorry - it just doesn't do it for me.

Wouldn't need the divorce court; the marriage wasn't legally valid.

I have no doubt that Mary is obsessed by John, but I don't think obsession is the same thing as love; almost the first words she says to Sherlock in TEH are about how his apparent death had almost destroyed John, and yet she's prepared to do it for real.

And she was preparing to take out CAM long before she realised she was pregnant, hence cosying up to Janine; that has nothing to do with Sherlock...
 

 

February 23, 2014 5:17 pm  #45


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

She only did the typing!
Tee Hee.


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February 23, 2014 6:04 pm  #46


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be  clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 23, 2014 6:06 pm  #47


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

In the great scheme of things Mary being a caring person, or not a caring person, is irrelevant; I doubt that Moftiss intend to have her hanging around for much longer because in the end she's dull. There's nothing behind the facade beyond the 'I want', and 'I want' gets old really, really quickly, so there will be one more twist and then exit.

Which is just as well because otherwise it would cease to be Sherlock...

 

February 23, 2014 6:07 pm  #48


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I confess I originally thought the wedding may be the end of season 3...but no, I like the way they did it.


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February 23, 2014 6:47 pm  #49


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

mrshouse wrote:

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be  clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.

They Mary Sued her; I suspect that Moftiss know only too well that Mary Sues don't actually exist, and would have assumed that their audiences do too. Some of us were waiting for the second shoe to drop; I agree that the soft focus shots with the soft focus hairstyle and the vintage style dress were entirely calculated to invoke the sentimental reaction which was then blown to pieces in HLV.

But as I keep pointing out, the real gut punch isn't Mary shooting Sherlock; it's John not noticing that his best friend is bleeding out while he throws a hissy fit. They turned the whole relationship on its head in that scene, and somehow they have to walk back from that, if only to establish the John Watson of canon.

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I think I'm going to read some canon to cheer myself up
 

 

February 23, 2014 6:50 pm  #50


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Great idea, willow! No third one between our boys in there, not seriously, but great supporters ( incl. Mary morstan btw.) might join you.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 23, 2014 7:17 pm  #51


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.

They Mary Sued her; I suspect that Moftiss know only too well that Mary Sues don't actually exist, and would have assumed that their audiences do too. Some of us were waiting for the second shoe to drop; I agree that the soft focus shots with the soft focus hairstyle and the vintage style dress were entirely calculated to invoke the sentimental reaction which was then blown to pieces in HLV.

But as I keep pointing out, the real gut punch isn't Mary shooting Sherlock; it's John not noticing that his best friend is bleeding out while he throws a hissy fit. They turned the whole relationship on its head in that scene, and somehow they have to walk back from that, if only to establish the John Watson of canon.

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I think I'm going to read some canon to cheer myself up
 

Great comment, and I hear you. I had to go watch a Millenium Marathon to cheer myself up, last night. Oy Flipping Vey!

Gut punch. Yeah, that about sums it up. :-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 23, 2014 7:17 pm)

 

February 23, 2014 7:54 pm  #52


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I really hope that happens in S4! Coming from canon I feel that´s the way their relationship is supposed to be, the only way that feels natural and will work over time. Watching this parent-child-thing going on between the Watsons and Sherlock in TSoT was horrible for me, it felt so against everything I associated with Holmes.. 

If HLV is the way Moftiss chose to reach that point "it was worth the wound", to quote canon..
 

 

February 23, 2014 9:17 pm  #53


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Zatoichi wrote:

Willow wrote:

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I really hope that happens in S4! Coming from canon I feel that´s the way their relationship is supposed to be, the only way that feels natural and will work over time. Watching this parent-child-thing going on between the Watsons and Sherlock in TSoT was horrible for me, it felt so against everything I associated with Holmes.. 

If HLV is the way Moftiss chose to reach that point "it was worth the wound", to quote canon..
 

 
I must confess that I really didn't like that in TSoT either; it's yet another of the illusions which is shattered in HLV. Mothers don't, on the whole, shoot their children, even if they want to and when Mary pulls the trigger that's gone.

Moftiss have set up opposing views of what family is, and I think we can reasonably deduce that they prefer the warmth which is so much a feature of the Holmes' home to the cold, almost sterile atmosphere of John's place in the suburbs; the person who dressed that set obviously had very clear guidance from the writers and director, and it is, to say the least, uninviting.

But I do think that S3 could be fairly characterised as the season where Sherlock grew up; in some ways it's painful, but growing up usually is. The task for S4 is to get John to do some of the same, even though we know that he will remain a sucker for a pretty face and a sob story, as he does in canon; John is always going to be naive.

But to paraphrase Lestrade on Sherlock, if we're lucky he will become the John Watson we love in canon; he will have to make some headway on that if he's going to persuade Mycroft that he is not a liability who needs to be kept a long way away from his brother...

 

February 23, 2014 9:23 pm  #54


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I think Mycroft does think John's a liability...but also knows there is no way he'll keep Sherlock away from him.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 23, 2014 9:33 pm  #55


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

Willow wrote:

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I really hope that happens in S4! Coming from canon I feel that´s the way their relationship is supposed to be, the only way that feels natural and will work over time. Watching this parent-child-thing going on between the Watsons and Sherlock in TSoT was horrible for me, it felt so against everything I associated with Holmes.. 

If HLV is the way Moftiss chose to reach that point "it was worth the wound", to quote canon..
 

 
I must confess that I really didn't like that in TSoT either; it's yet another of the illusions which is shattered in HLV. Mothers don't, on the whole, shoot their children, even if they want to and when Mary pulls the trigger that's gone.

Moftiss have set up opposing views of what family is, and I think we can reasonably deduce that they prefer the warmth which is so much a feature of the Holmes' home to the cold, almost sterile atmosphere of John's place in the suburbs; the person who dressed that set obviously had very clear guidance from the writers and director, and it is, to say the least, uninviting.

But I do think that S3 could be fairly characterised as the season where Sherlock grew up; in some ways it's painful, but growing up usually is. The task for S4 is to get John to do some of the same, even though we know that he will remain a sucker for a pretty face and a sob story, as he does in canon; John is always going to be naive.

But to paraphrase Lestrade on Sherlock, if we're lucky he will become the John Watson we love in canon; he will have to make some headway on that if he's going to persuade Mycroft that he is not a liability who needs to be kept a long way away from his brother...

OH! Ohhhhhhhh! 

The line about shattering illusions. 

Pegged it. 

 

February 24, 2014 12:56 am  #56


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

besleybean wrote:

I think Mycroft does think John's a liability...but also knows there is no way he'll keep Sherlock away from him.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Sherlock's on parole; one breach of the parole conditions will put him back on the plane, and he will die.

Given the circumstances it should be really easy to grasp that Sherlock wants to tackle Moriarty's apparent return, and does not have any intention of allowing John to screw it up, since the plane is still there. Mycroft's game, Mycroft's rules, and Mycroft does not love John, and certainly does not love Mary. After all, why should he?

So, Mycroft can keep Sherlock away from John very easily


 

 

February 24, 2014 6:51 am  #57


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Wouldn't be much of a show...


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 24, 2014 7:49 am  #58


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I don't expect Sherlock to be on parole next season, to be honest - I suspect it'll be another thing that's neatly swept under the carpet.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 24, 2014 9:30 am  #59


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.

They Mary Sued her; I suspect that Moftiss know only too well that Mary Sues don't actually exist, and would have assumed that their audiences do too. Some of us were waiting for the second shoe to drop; I agree that the soft focus shots with the soft focus hairstyle and the vintage style dress were entirely calculated to invoke the sentimental reaction which was then blown to pieces in HLV.

But as I keep pointing out, the real gut punch isn't Mary shooting Sherlock; it's John not noticing that his best friend is bleeding out while he throws a hissy fit. They turned the whole relationship on its head in that scene, and somehow they have to walk back from that, if only to establish the John Watson of canon.

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I think I'm going to read some canon to cheer myself up
 

Which point was that? All I saw was John bending down over his friend, realising he'd been shot, then saying "oh my God, what happened, who shot him?" etc to Magnussen. Really didn't see anything wrong in that. Just a normal reaction.


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February 24, 2014 9:35 am  #60


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I think willow wanted to point out that it took him to long to realize Sherlock was seriously injured as he was too occupied with his domestic.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

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