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February 19, 2014 12:31 pm  #21


Re: The things that were never said...

Be wrote:

When I watch series 3 I always feel as if Sherlock accidentally set foot into a parallel universe after his return.

Yeah, me too..http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
 Or is it the same universe but Sherlock was exchanged during the hiatus? Anyway, something shifted..

 

SusiGo wrote:

I am not sure that Mycroft really knows everything

 I´m quite sure he doesn´t, after re-watching SiB yesterday.. (the whole thing with Sherlock saving Irene without Mycroft having a clue..)

 

February 19, 2014 1:46 pm  #22


Re: The things that were never said...

SusiGo wrote:

But this does not mean that he chose her to approach John. Or that he constantly kept an eye on John. He says that John has moved out of the flat and has gone on with his life, that is all. I am not sure that Mycroft really knows everything. After all he only comes to the flat with Anderson after John has phoned him about the drugs incident. 

Was this an answer to what I wrote? Because I didn't mean to say that Mycroft approached Mary at all, I just meant that at this point almost anything is possible. Tbh, if they should come up with something along that line in S4, I'm not sure I'll like it.
Mycroft has kept a file on John, so he knows about Mary. The question just is (as has been mentioned before by various people in this and other threads): how much does he know about her?

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (February 19, 2014 1:47 pm)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

February 19, 2014 2:37 pm  #23


Re: The things that were never said...

No, Solar, it referred to what Be wrote. Sorry for not quoting. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

Surely Mycroft kept a file on John - as long as he was his brother's flatmate. But we do not know if he continued to do so after Sherlock had left. He might but we just don't know for sure. Therefore we cannot know if and how much he knew about Mary. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 19, 2014 3:00 pm  #24


Re: The things that were never said...

Well, but he handed a file on John over to Sherlock in TEH...? Or to be more precise, Anthea handed it over to Sherlock. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

February 19, 2014 3:08 pm  #25


Re: The things that were never said...

I guess as long as there are no reasons to be extra-suspicious even Mycroft would not dig too deep into the past of John´s new girlfriend.. She is a nurse, they met when she applied for the job in John´s surgery.. probably too unimportant to check birth certificates and so on. But you never know..

 

February 19, 2014 3:16 pm  #26


Re: The things that were never said...

Have we seen the same episode?
Mycroft handed Sherlock a file with John's pictures and several papers in it.
Mycroft sarcastically joked about meeting with John for fish and chips on fridays. And he said:
" I've kept a weather eye on him of course." 

Sherlock can read the file. We don't know the exact content of it but to keep a weather eye on someone is an idiomatic expression for looking after someone precisely.
That doesn't mean that I think it is proof for Mycroft's hand in Mary's existence there. It is a possibility.  I don't think that Mary could stay close to John for a long time without being noticed or checked.
And what Mycroft knows about her is possibly in this file. I didn't say that Mycroft knows everything or is responsible for everything that happens. But the conversation between Mycroft and Sherlock is sometimes not one-dimensional. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


 

 

February 19, 2014 3:30 pm  #27


Re: The things that were never said...

Sorry, my mistake. I checked this a minute ago and was going to correct myself. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png


 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 19, 2014 3:35 pm  #28


Re: The things that were never said...

I didn´t say he did no checks at all, just maybe not enough to expose a carefully constructed false identity.

Well okay, now I have something I want to be clarified in a "cards-on-table"-conversation..http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 

February 19, 2014 3:36 pm  #29


Re: The things that were never said...

Be wrote:

Have we seen the same episode?
Mycroft handed Sherlock a file with John's pictures and several papers in it.
Mycroft sarcastically joked about meeting with John for fish and chips on fridays. And he said:
" I've kept a weather eye on him of course." 

Sherlock can read the file. We don't know the exact content of it but to keep a weather eye on someone is an idiomatic expression for looking after someone precisely.
That doesn't mean that I think it is proof for Mycroft's hand in Mary's existence there. It is a possibility.  I don't think that Mary could stay close to John for a long time without being noticed or checked.
And what Mycroft knows about her is possibly in this file. I didn't say that Mycroft knows everything or is responsible for everything that happens. But the conversation between Mycroft and Sherlock is sometimes not one-dimensional. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


 

 
I've thought about this and I've just posted elsewhere that it makes no sense to me that Mycroft wouldn't have investigated Mary....especially if, as he said, he was keeping an eye on John.
I'm inclined to think at the moment though, that if he did know about her past, he stopped short of telling Sherlock for some reason, and that Mary's info wasn't in that file.
Sherlock seemed genuinely shocked and hurt when he saw the "real" Mary for the first time.
The question is, why would Mycroft keep the info to himself? He appears to issue a guarded warning to Sherlock with the Redbeard comment but goes no further - and then because he's so blind to who she really is, Sherlock gets shot.
It makes no sense and I'm starting to wonder what Mycroft is up to?


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 20, 2014 1:16 am  #30


Re: The things that were never said...

A conversation between Sherlock and Mycroft where they discuss what happened to Moriarty's corpse after Sherlock jumped.
 

 

May 9, 2014 4:42 am  #31


Re: The things that were never said...

Swanpride wrote:

The only thing I would like to know is if Mycroft knows about Mary, and if he does, when he knew.

100% agree


"Look I'm in shock. I've got a blanket."
"It's where two people who like each other go out and have fun?"
"I will burn the heart out of you."
"Lets have dinner."
"I don't have friends. I've just got one."
"Don't,"
"Just the two of us against the rest of the world."
"Oh, Sherlock, what do we say about coincidences?"
"Did you miss me?"
 

May 9, 2014 11:13 am  #32


Re: The things that were never said...

A conversation between John and Sherlock in which we learn that they have both read the flash-drive and are plotting to undo Mary in some fashion after the child is born.

A conversation between Mary and someone who knows her true identity in which it is revealed that her meeting John was never a coincidence but gives us clues as to why Mycroft didn't intervene.

I don't think we have any reason to assume that Mycroft had no clue about Mary. He is the British government and head of secret services. It's his job to know these things, especially when it involves his brother's immediate entourage.

 

May 9, 2014 4:55 pm  #33


Re: The things that were never said...

You would think...


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May 10, 2014 9:40 pm  #34


Re: The things that were never said...

John and Sherlock really need to have a talk about why Sherlock pretended to kill himself. John's self-centredness in this regard is destroying Sherlock.

Now, I understand to a point what John went through after the Fall. Atter my then boyfriend's twin brother and best friend inexplicably threw himself off a building, months of therapy followed. In my case, it was not so much to sort through my own feelings, but more to figure out how to help my boyfriend through his own grief. I saw him go through all the stages of grief, something we don't see John do. He's stuck at the anger stage and he hasn't figured out how to deal with that anger. He needs a better therapist.

Sherlock comes back and what does John do? Beats him up. That is so wrong and not funny, even if Sherlock wasn't a mass of contusions and welts under that suit. And then it just gets worse as the season progresses. John claims to forgive Sherlock at the end of TEH, but Sherlock obviously doesn't believe this because he spends the rest of the season trying to make it up to John, to the point of sacrificing himself for John all over again.

Nowhere in the season do we get John asking why. How, yes, but never why.  He has no clue that Sherlock suffered just as badly in the last two years, if not more. Sherlock threw away his life and his reputation for his friends, put himself in mortal peril, and was tortured for them. It is painful to watch Sherlock acting like a puppy waiting to be kicked all through season 3, trying so hard to make up for something he has no need to make up for. I kept waiting for the scene that would bring some emotional resolution to the enormity of Sherlock's two years away and it never came.

I think John is so unemotional on the tarmac at the end of HLV because he hasn't really let Sherlock back into his heart. He's likely fooled himself into think he has, but the fact is that he's moved on and Sherlock is on the periphery of his concerns.

The tarmac scene is essentially a repeat of the rooftop scene, but so much more poignant because Sherlock is truly going to his death and we see that John hasn't really forgiven him at all. Ironically, Moriarity is giving them a second chance to make it right between them and I hope that season 4 will make that happen.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

May 10, 2014 10:06 pm  #35


Re: The things that were never said...

maryagrawatson wrote:

John and Sherlock really need to have a talk about why Sherlock pretended to kill himself. John's self-centredness in this regard is destroying Sherlock.

Now, I understand to a point what John went through after the Fall. Atter my then boyfriend's twin brother and best friend inexplicably threw himself off a building, months of therapy followed. In my case, it was not so much to sort through my own feelings, but more to figure out how to help my boyfriend through his own grief. I saw him go through all the stages of grief, something we don't see John do. He's stuck at the anger stage and he hasn't figured out how to deal with that anger. He needs a better therapist.

Sherlock comes back and what does John do? Beats him up. That is so wrong and not funny, even if Sherlock wasn't a mass of contusions and welts under that suit. And then it just gets worse as the season progresses. John claims to forgive Sherlock at the end of TEH, but Sherlock obviously doesn't believe this because he spends the rest of the season trying to make it up to John, to the point of sacrificing himself for John all over again.

Nowhere in the season do we get John asking why. How, yes, but never why.  He has no clue that Sherlock suffered just as badly in the last two years, if not more. Sherlock threw away his life and his reputation for his friends, put himself in mortal peril, and was tortured for them. It is painful to watch Sherlock acting like a puppy waiting to be kicked all through season 3, trying so hard to make up for something he has no need to make up for. I kept waiting for the scene that would bring some emotional resolution to the enormity of Sherlock's two years away and it never came.

I think John is so unemotional on the tarmac at the end of HLV because he hasn't really let Sherlock back into his heart. He's likely fooled himself into think he has, but the fact is that he's moved on and Sherlock is on the periphery of his concerns.

The tarmac scene is essentially a repeat of the rooftop scene, but so much more poignant because Sherlock is truly going to his death and we see that John hasn't really forgiven him at all. Ironically, Moriarity is giving them a second chance to make it right between them and I hope that season 4 will make that happen.

Mary

Althrough we never saw Sherlock directly speaking to John about his ordeal, I think John was told what happened at some time. At the end of HLV, he tells Mary that Moriarty shot himself to his head, so he knows the details noone but Sherlock can know. Ergo, Sherlock told him everything. 

If you look closely, John isn´t angry at Sherlock for more than that first scene in TEH, when it´s just too much for him. Later, even being riled by some equally outrageous things (in the train car, for example), he just laughs. He hasn´t it in himself to remain angry for so long. 

In HLV he just seems angry, but I think it´s for the very opposite reason – he is discontent precisely because he was separated from Sherlock after his marriage and he feels that´s not what he was aiming for. He wishes to be with his friend solving cases rather than living mundane life of a doctor. 

And I´m astonished how can anyone think John was unemotional on the tarmac. In my eyes, he was barely surpressing his worry and pain over Sherlock´s sacrifice, which – as he had to notice after CAM´s shooting – was done to save him and Mary. 

Maybe it´s because people are used to american TV series which spell everything for them, aggresivelly, not leaving them any doubt about any emotion or thought, not leaving them any place for their own assession of the situations seen onscreen? So that they forget to enjoy more subtle acting used in Europe or in asian countries? If Sherlock was a japanese TV series, that scene on the tarmac would be seen as absolutely emotional - culturally, people there are used to read subtle signs of body language to percieve emotion rather than hear the words...

Last edited by nakahara (May 10, 2014 10:07 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 10, 2014 10:16 pm  #36


Re: The things that were never said...

I'm so glad you said this.
If you watch John, he is really affected..


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 11, 2014 1:28 am  #37


Re: The things that were never said...

Unemotional was definitely the wrong word to use. Yes, John is feeling something on the tarmac. He's not happy about the handshake, that's evident, and that shows the immense void between him and Sherlock.  They're not best friends who share things. There's a wall between them. Some might argue that they're so close they don't need to say anything, but they haven't spoke about what really matters. I don't get a sense of closure, just profound sadness.

BTW I don't watch American TV, so that can't be colouring my view. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
But I am on the high functioning end of the Asperger spectrum, so I don't read body language cues very well and tend to process things intellectually rather than emotionally. So I am not at all surprised by the disagreement with my interpretation and am glad for a happier perspective!

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

May 11, 2014 2:08 am  #38


Re: The things that were never said...

maryagrawatson wrote:

Nowhere in the season do we get John asking why. How, yes, but never why.  

I have to point out that this just is not true.
In the second resturaunt scene in TEH John says "I don't care HOW you did it, I want to know WHY."

And I agree with Nakahara that at some point Sherlock explained everything to John.  I honestly wish this scene had happened on camera, but TPTB made a different decision.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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May 11, 2014 7:19 am  #39


Re: The things that were never said...

I would like to hear John apologise to Sherlock for constantly battering him.
Poor Sherlock, he's like a battered wife.

Last edited by besleybean (May 11, 2014 7:19 am)


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May 12, 2014 2:15 pm  #40


Re: The things that were never said...

maryagrawatson wrote:

Unemotional was definitely the wrong word to use. Yes, John is feeling something on the tarmac. He's not happy about the handshake, that's evident, and that shows the immense void between him and Sherlock.  They're not best friends who share things. There's a wall between them. Some might argue that they're so close they don't need to say anything, but they haven't spoke about what really matters. I don't get a sense of closure, just profound sadness.

BTW I don't watch American TV, so that can't be colouring my view. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
But I am on the high functioning end of the Asperger spectrum, so I don't read body language cues very well and tend to process things intellectually rather than emotionally. So I am not at all surprised by the disagreement with my interpretation and am glad for a happier perspective!

Mary

Sorry, if I was being presumptuous. American TV series are broadcasted all over the world nowadays and it´s hard to avoid them, so I just presumed that everybody watches at least some of them. If that´s incorrect in your case, I apologise. 

You know, for me the very proof that John cared for Sherlock deeply is the fact that he was on the tarmac at all.  

I read once in Lord Byron´s biography that when he prepared for his travels through Greece and Balkans, he asked his close friend to see him off in the harbour. But „dear friend“ dismissed Lord Byron coldly, telling him that he can´t come because he must go into town with his mother, shopping. It hurt Lord Byron considerably. 

Now consider – what would be easier that John imitating the example of Lord Byron´s „friend“ if he hated Sherlock? If John was really angry and bitter about Sherlock, why bother coming at all? He could use an elegant pretext that he can´t come because he and Mary must arrange many things before the birth of their child. And I´m sure nobody would argue with that. 

But John wants to be there for Sherlock, to see him off before he leaves UK. He isn´t there because it´s his hobby to frequent unknown small airports – he is especially brought there by Mycroft´s car so that he could tell goodbye to his friend. And he even brings Mary with himself, so that she could say thank you to the detective (because it was mainly her for whom Sherlock sacrificed himself). This isn´t a sign of unfriendly behaviour, just the opposite. 

Considering the body language of John: when John feels adverse to somebody, no matter if wary from danger or jealous, he assumes rigid but firm pose and maintains eye-contact. He speaks like that to Mycroft in ASiP, to Irene Adler in TSiB, to Chief Superintendant in TRF, to junkie Billy Wiggins in HLV.  

But when John speaks to Sherlock on the tarmac, he fidgets, avoids eye-contact, shuffles one´s ffet – it indicates that he is uncertain, worried and unhappy. He doesn´t want to part his ways with Sherlock in this way, but they have no more time to have longer conversation. He is at the end of his wits – so he at least asks Sherlock when he is being sent to and when he returns, to assure himself that it will be alright. 

All this is a sign to me that John cares about his friend and certainly isn´t angry at him.

Last edited by nakahara (May 12, 2014 2:16 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

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