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February 16, 2014 5:28 pm  #41


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

TeeJay wrote:

Willow wrote:

Yes, I really did watch him waiting for him to collapse because he had already shown by his voice and his breathing at Leinster Gardens that he was struggling to get enough oxygen into him, and there's no good way back from that.

From that point onwards it was merely a question of when, not if...

In that case, that probably makes you a better doctor than John Watson.

Except when you watched, you hadn't just realized that your wife had been lying to you for months, has a secret identity and just shot your best friend. I really think you can only truly judge these things when you've been in the same or similar situation. (Which, I'm hoping, isn't terribly likely to happen. )

The human brain isn't always rationally analysable. When tragedy strikes or you're very emotionally affected by something, it's only normal that rational thinking and visual acuity for details takes a back seat. I am still of the steadfast opinion that John's brain was racing a mile a minute, all focused on Mary and himself, which blinded him to the physical signs Sherlock was prohibiting -- medical training or not.

You know, I think in the end it comes down to the fact that it's fiction, and TV entertainment. Moffat and Gatiss aren't doctors, and even though they most likely had this scene checked for medical accuracy, they were probably going for the drama rather than the authenticity.

 
Yes; I entirely accept that it's fiction, and tv entertainment, and since Dr Watson is a fictional character he has no medical skills whatsoever.

The one point I would make is that Benedict did a beautiful piece of acting which he had obviously worked really hard on to get it right, and yet a lot of people simply ignore it. I appreciate that many people simply don't think of acting as work, but it is, and it's a tad disappointing that people don't appreciate just how great he is.

But that's me, and I entirely recognise that your mileage may vary...

 

February 16, 2014 5:36 pm  #42


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Willow wrote:

The one point I would make is that Benedict did a beautiful piece of acting which he had obviously worked really hard on to get it right, and yet a lot of people simply ignore it. I appreciate that many people simply don't think of acting as work, but it is, and it's a tad disappointing that people don't appreciate just how great he is.

I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone on this forum who wouldn't agree with you on this. Benedict once again did a brilliant job in S3, in all three episodes.
The thing about this particular scene is: I know next to nothing about medicine and wouldn't really know how bad Sherlock's condition really was right then and there. He looked crap, he had trouble breathing and obviously was in pain and I guess if I had been there, I would have called an ambulance right away. And John probably should have done that, too, and earlier. But again, I understand why John was so focused on himself and his problems and his pain and his anger and didn't see that his best friend needed medical attention. Or maybe he did see and Sherlock told him to mind his own business (wouldn't be the first time) and sort things out with Mary first.  
 


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February 16, 2014 5:40 pm  #43


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Willow wrote:

TeeJay wrote:

Willow wrote:

Yes, I really did watch him waiting for him to collapse because he had already shown by his voice and his breathing at Leinster Gardens that he was struggling to get enough oxygen into him, and there's no good way back from that.

From that point onwards it was merely a question of when, not if...

In that case, that probably makes you a better doctor than John Watson.

Except when you watched, you hadn't just realized that your wife had been lying to you for months, has a secret identity and just shot your best friend. I really think you can only truly judge these things when you've been in the same or similar situation. (Which, I'm hoping, isn't terribly likely to happen. )

The human brain isn't always rationally analysable. When tragedy strikes or you're very emotionally affected by something, it's only normal that rational thinking and visual acuity for details takes a back seat. I am still of the steadfast opinion that John's brain was racing a mile a minute, all focused on Mary and himself, which blinded him to the physical signs Sherlock was prohibiting -- medical training or not.

You know, I think in the end it comes down to the fact that it's fiction, and TV entertainment. Moffat and Gatiss aren't doctors, and even though they most likely had this scene checked for medical accuracy, they were probably going for the drama rather than the authenticity.

 
Yes; I entirely accept that it's fiction, and tv entertainment, and since Dr Watson is a fictional character he has no medical skills whatsoever.

The one point I would make is that Benedict did a beautiful piece of acting which he had obviously worked really hard on to get it right, and yet a lot of people simply ignore it. I appreciate that many people simply don't think of acting as work, but it is, and it's a tad disappointing that people don't appreciate just how great he is.

But that's me, and I entirely recognise that your mileage may vary...

The point about Benedict's acting was one I've also tried to make on this - I agree with you completely, and this is what I meant last night when I mentioned the directing/writing being maybe slanted a little *too* much towards John?
I love the subtlety of BC's acting at times like this, and I think there's an amount of generosity in it, too - but it's a shame if what he's trying to convey isn't reaching people because they're *only* focused on John.
There was in fact a double tragedy going on here and for a lot of viewers only one side was picked up on.
 


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 16, 2014 5:52 pm  #44


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Tinks wrote:

I wonder if when they film the next episode, they'll include flashbacks to some of the things that did go on while Sherlock was in Hospital?
I feel like they deliberately "hid" things from us that may have happened during that time between John, Sherlock and Mycroft.

 
I think there's a good chance of that happening, since otherwise we would be left with a Mycroft apparently behaving completely unlike the Mycroft of the first three seasons. Moftiss have been quite quiet about just what happened, which suggests that things did happen.

 

February 16, 2014 6:02 pm  #45


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Did he really behave so differently? Or do we get to see now what has been only alluded to before? Maybe "I worry about him constantly" was not just irony and the attempt to control Sherlock via John but the truth. I am not sure if we have to see more than we are presented with in series 3.
He had to keep silent about his brother for two years, saved him from danger (maybe more than once), then he observed Sherlock trying to find back into his old life, adjusting to the John and Mary situation and finally nearly dying. This might be enough for a brother who knows that caring is not an advantage but nevertheless realises that the feeling exists somewhere deep down in his heart. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 16, 2014 6:03 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 16, 2014 6:04 pm  #46


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Or perhaps this way: John finds Sherlock and tells him to go back to hospital. Sherlock explains the situation and wants to sort things out with Mary first. He knows it will take them some time to get back together, but he wants John to make a decision. Sherlock will have to go back to hospital afterwards for a long time. That will give John and Mary the time they need. Once Sherlock's health is restored, he can tackle the Magnussen case immediately, and he will hopefully have his old John back, or at least they'll be on a better basis than in the beginning of HLV. The knowledge that his friend is very ill and will be taken back to hospital soon puts additional pressure on John, which is why he's extremely upset and a bit helpless trying to do the right thing.


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February 16, 2014 6:07 pm  #47


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Sorry, I cross posted with three people or so, that's why my post seemed a bit out of context.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

February 16, 2014 6:13 pm  #48


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Tinks wrote:

I wonder if when they film the next episode, they'll include flashbacks to some of the things that did go on while Sherlock was in Hospital?

Personally, I don't see that happening. It's my feeling they've closed that chapter and will be moving forward rather than flashing back in series 4. Going back to explain a missing scene or two in a hospital seems like filling gaps that don't need filling in order to move the story forward. Then again, we have no idea what series 4 will be about, so who knows?
 


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February 16, 2014 6:23 pm  #49


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

SolarSystem wrote:

belis wrote:

In my haed canon John has given him a good talking to and a once over when he first found him after the escape from hospital. That reassured him that he is likely to survive running around town for a bit. I'm a still a bit surprised though, to be hones,t that John agreed to it and that he didn't forcibly drag Sherlock back to hospital considering how he managed to escort him for a drug test.

 
In my head canon they didn't really run around town all that much, because Sherlock called John and asked him to come to The Empty House - Sherlock was already there and waited for John to join him. What they did afterwards was to call a cab and get back to Baker Street, and I assume that Sherlock was very determined to get things done the way he wanted. We can see this in 221B when John finally says "your way, always your way". Sherlock wants to sort this out now, and he gets his way, internal bleeding or not.

Like I already said, I understand both of them in that situation and I can't really be cross with either of them. They both could have acted differently - but I understand why they acted the way they did.

And I don't really expect Mycroft to give John a hard time about this in S4 - just because Sherlock won't allow him to. In the end it was Sherlock's decision to leave the hospital and to put his health in danger in order to sort things out with Mary and John. If at all, Mycroft should give Mary a hard time, IMO. She hurt Sherlock, she hurt John.

 
I think that you have overlooked the fact that Sherlock is now on parole, and thus not in a position to dictate to Mycroft the terms of his involvement; there is always that job in Eastern Europe, and Mycroft's colleague M (James Bond's boss) can put overwhelming pressure to have him despatched there if he insists on continuing to associate with a known foreign agent with a track record of killing people. Though I suppose M might simply take a more direct route and make a phone call.

I think that perhaps you are also overlooking the fact that Mary had visited Sherlock in hospital and threatened him before he made his departure; Mycroft most certainly wouldn't, much as he might deprecate Sherlock's leaving the hospital, just as he wouldn't ignore the fact that John has apparently decided to emulate the three wise monkeys.

A man who doesn't want to know who his enemies are cannot be trusted at the sharp end, and Mycroft's life is spent at the sharp end; throwing the memory stick in the fire may have been a wonderfully romantic gesture but it effectively underlines the fact that John is out of the game. He can't be allowed to stay in the game as things stand; it should be fascinating to see how Moftiss resolve this dilemma...

 

February 16, 2014 6:41 pm  #50


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

SusiGo wrote:

Did he really behave so differently? Or do we get to see now what has been only alluded to before? Maybe "I worry about him constantly" was not just irony and the attempt to control Sherlock via John but the truth. I am not sure if we have to see more than we are presented with in series 3.
He had to keep silent about his brother for two years, saved him from danger (maybe more than once), then he observed Sherlock trying to find back into his old life, adjusting to the John and Mary situation and finally nearly dying. This might be enough for a brother who knows that caring is not an advantage but nevertheless realises that the feeling exists somewhere deep down in his heart. 
 

My apologies; the out of character remark is intended for a projected Season 4, where Mycroft, having expressed his deep affection for his brother, which I believe has always been there, allows a known foreign agent who almost killed his brother to remain in close proximity to him.

I simply can't see that happening; there are technical reasons like security clearances, and there are emotional reasons, not least the fact that Sherlock is, in effect, on parole and vulnerable to being dispatched on the plane again, should Mycroft's colleagues put their oar in. I don't believe that Mycroft would run that risk...
 

 

February 16, 2014 7:13 pm  #51


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

I see. Thanks for explaining. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 16, 2014 7:19 pm  #52


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

TeeJay wrote:

Willow wrote:

Yes, I really did watch him waiting for him to collapse because he had already shown by his voice and his breathing at Leinster Gardens that he was struggling to get enough oxygen into him, and there's no good way back from that.

From that point onwards it was merely a question of when, not if...

In that case, that probably makes you a better doctor than John Watson.

Except when you watched, you hadn't just realized that your wife had been lying to you for months, has a secret identity and just shot your best friend. I really think you can only truly judge these things when you've been in the same or similar situation. (Which, I'm hoping, isn't terribly likely to happen. )

The human brain isn't always rationally analysable. When tragedy strikes or you're very emotionally affected by something, it's only normal that rational thinking and visual acuity for details takes a back seat. I am still of the steadfast opinion that John's brain was racing a mile a minute, all focused on Mary and himself, which blinded him to the physical signs Sherlock was prohibiting -- medical training or not.

You know, I think in the end it comes down to the fact that it's fiction, and TV entertainment. Moffat and Gatiss aren't doctors, and even though they most likely had this scene checked for medical accuracy, they were probably going for the drama rather than the authenticity.

Honestly, I think we give John a pass because, hey-- hello-- it's JOHN, and we like him, so we're willing to cut him some slack. Thou shalt not criticize John! :-D

I did think it interesting that Mrs. Hudson noticed how bad Sherlock looked...

 

February 16, 2014 7:22 pm  #53


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Tinks wrote:

Hi all
I do think, as I've said earlier, that even when you're mind blowingly upset, you're natural instinct is to push those feelings aside if someone else shows signs of real distress (John eventually does this when Sherlock collapses, and I'll hold my hands up here and say that at first I thought he was still looking at Mary in a "how could you do this to me" way, but I now think it was more "look what you've done to him") - but the point where I thought it started to become really clear that he was ill was when John said "you two should have got married" - from then on it becomes more and more clear and a child would've noticed something was wrong, frankly.
However, in the spirit of the thread title I will offer something else in John's defence - and that's this:
He didn't officially "forgive" Mary until Sherlock was out of Hospital.
Doesn't mean I'm not still cross with him though but I've found something positive to hold onto until he gets a chance to redeem himself properly next season
I might just go and make an "in defence of Sherlock" thread in a bit, though

Please do!!!! 

 

 

February 16, 2014 7:25 pm  #54


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Willow wrote:

TeeJay wrote:

I think I get what Willow is saying, but I don't necessarily agree. Apparently there are telltale signs of blood loss that John, as a doctor, should have spotted, even in his emotionally compromised state. That may very well be, but I can still forgive him that he didn't, because of his emotionally compromised state. No one is a doctor 100% of the time, and no one is infallible.

 
Off course, I entirely accept that John was in an emotionally compromised state, and that doctors make mistakes all of the time.

Perhaps it might help if you imagine what sort of reception John would be likely to get from the surgeons and intensivists who had done such a great job in hauling Sherlock back from the jaws of death in the first place. They get very picky about people messing up their masterpieces, and they would know from the paramedics that John had been in situ and apparently oblivious to the fact that Sherlock was bleeding out.

These are not the sort of circumstances in which said surgeons and intensivists are likely to take the 'we all make mistakes' line; admittedly, surgeons may not be the most self critical of individuals in the first place, which is why audit exists, but then John himself had been a trauma surgeon, and thus would be held to a higher standard than the average GP.

I certainly do not suggest that it's unforgivable, because Sherlock obviously forgives John, but in terms of plot lines next season it's a problem; Mycroft isn't the forgiving kind. He tolerated John's presence when he was an asset; someone to watch Sherlock's back, patch him up and, if all else fails, shoot someone threatening him. John is no longer an asset; he's a liability, and Mycroft, of all people, sees no reason to retain someone who has outlived his usefulness...

Awesome point. Awesome!

 

February 16, 2014 7:49 pm  #55


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

I have to say I can't believe that John overlooked Sherlock's bad state. He's an army doctor, he's used to working under very difficult circumstances. There must have been some kind of agreement between them that Sherlock would go back to hospital. Maybe that's why he keeps saying "do it quickly", because he wants to see a decision before he has to leave.

Another question is, if the scene where Sherlock and John met again after Sherlock escaped from hospital was important, why was it not shown? It was probably an emotional scene and would have explained a couple of things about their behaviour, so why didn't we get to see it? Was there something they said, some piece of information that we weren't supposed to know?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

February 16, 2014 8:34 pm  #56


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I have to say I can't believe that John overlooked Sherlock's bad state. He's an army doctor, he's used to working under very difficult circumstances. There must have been some kind of agreement between them that Sherlock would go back to hospital. Maybe that's why he keeps saying "do it quickly", because he wants to see a decision before he has to leave.

Another question is, if the scene where Sherlock and John met again after Sherlock escaped from hospital was important, why was it not shown? It was probably an emotional scene and would have explained a couple of things about their behaviour, so why didn't we get to see it? Was there something they said, some piece of information that we weren't supposed to know?

Was there actually a scene that was cut for times sake or are you just saying they should have done a scene like that.

I have a feeling John called him back from the call Mrs Hudson couldn't get him to answer and Sherlock said come Leinster Gardens. He probably got there in just enough time for Sherlock to say sit here fluff up your hair and stay silent I have something for you to hear.

Unless of course there was an actual scene that was said to be cut




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February 16, 2014 9:39 pm  #57


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

belis wrote:

Willow wrote:

Please be as pedantic as you like; it's a great asset to the discussion and fanfic writers everywhere. I do feel that the chances of Sherlock suddenly succumbing to an entirely coincidental respiratory disorder like asthma shortly after major surgery are somewhat slim; his voice and his breathing are pitch perfect for heavy duty blood loss, the cyanosis being icing on the cake.
 

For him to develop asthma out of blue would be unlikely. But a touch of atelectasis or pneumonia would be quite plausible. PE would be unlucky but it's deffinitely possible. I would say the most likely explanation as to why he would look pale and struggle to climb a flight of stairs would be residual anaemia. He wouldn't be topped up back to normal Hb levels and it takes time to recover. He wouldn't need to be actively bleeding again for a missmatch to occour between his body's oxygen requirment and what can be delivered. Pain remains a very good explanation. It's really hard to breath adaquatly following abdominal or thorasic surgery without adequate analgesia on board. Loads of things to go wrong and that's why he shouldn't have left his hospital bed in a first place.

In my haed canon John has given him a good talking to and a once over when he first found him after the escape from hospital. That reassured him that he is likely to survive running around town for a bit. I'm a still a bit surprised though, to be hones,t that John agreed to it and that he didn't forcibly drag Sherlock back to hospital considering how he managed to escort him for a drug test.

So yes, I do agree that John makes some very stupid decisions and that his judgement gets seriously clouded at times. I wouldn't go as far as to say that he outlived his usefulness but there is deffinitely a scope for improvement.
 

I think the practical problem with your suggestion re the stairs is that Sherlock's breathing has already become noticeably compromised in Leinster Gardens, where he's standing up. He's struggling for oxygen and the oxygen isn't arriving. As you know, a great deal better than I do, normal human beings possess a lot more lungs than they actually need; it is the heart which limits function, so, short of a pneumothorax, or PE, Sherlock should not be in the state of respiratory distress which he is in that early on.  Obviously he is in pain, and that pain would become more severe the longer he was detached from the pump, but I can say, from considerable personal experience, that the most likely response to uncontrolled pain in that area is to breathe very shallowly. Sherlock isn't doing that in Leinster Gardens; he's gasping and sighing. And he gasps rather more after he bends over to pick up the coin, by which point we see that he's sweating, and in the condition usually described as 'very poorly'.

So, as you note, John has gone from hauling his friend off to Barts because wow, excitement and wow, drama; Sherlock is damaging his health, to not noticing in Leinster Gardens that Sherlock looks as if he's about to pop his clogs. Sherlock does say then, 'Now talk, and sort it out; do it quickly', but clearly the Watsons did not wish to do so, since they then head off to Baker St.

Those are the facts which the writer presents us with, and whilst Sherlock can and does forgive John for it all, I really do not think that Mycroft would. Add to that John's apparent destruction of information which would identify the enemies he has acquired along with his (fake) wife, and we can see that Moftiss have set up a situation where Mycroft would, inevitably, view John as a liability. It should be fascinating to see how Moftiss get themselves out of it.




 

 

February 16, 2014 11:09 pm  #58


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Not to belabour the point, but I got curious and rewatched the scene in question again, on my crisp 24" computer screen in full HD. I must admit, I still can't really see any unambiguous signs of Sherlock bleeding internally, except for the fact that he is indeed struggling for breath there in those last few moments before the paramedics arrive. And I mean the 30 seconds before they get there.

He is not unduely fighting for breath when he walks up the stairs, although you can clearly see he's in discomfort (not unexpected, seeing it's just days after surgery). I don't see signs of cyanosis or that he's that much paler than usual. Of course I'm no doctor, and probably don't know where to look, but I'm just.... not seeing it, even when looking very closely.
 


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February 17, 2014 12:38 am  #59


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Willow wrote:

belis wrote:

Willow wrote:

Please be as pedantic as you like; it's a great asset to the discussion and fanfic writers everywhere. I do feel that the chances of Sherlock suddenly succumbing to an entirely coincidental respiratory disorder like asthma shortly after major surgery are somewhat slim; his voice and his breathing are pitch perfect for heavy duty blood loss, the cyanosis being icing on the cake.
 

For him to develop asthma out of blue would be unlikely. But a touch of atelectasis or pneumonia would be quite plausible. PE would be unlucky but it's deffinitely possible. I would say the most likely explanation as to why he would look pale and struggle to climb a flight of stairs would be residual anaemia. He wouldn't be topped up back to normal Hb levels and it takes time to recover. He wouldn't need to be actively bleeding again for a missmatch to occour between his body's oxygen requirment and what can be delivered. Pain remains a very good explanation. It's really hard to breath adaquatly following abdominal or thorasic surgery without adequate analgesia on board. Loads of things to go wrong and that's why he shouldn't have left his hospital bed in a first place.

In my haed canon John has given him a good talking to and a once over when he first found him after the escape from hospital. That reassured him that he is likely to survive running around town for a bit. I'm a still a bit surprised though, to be hones,t that John agreed to it and that he didn't forcibly drag Sherlock back to hospital considering how he managed to escort him for a drug test.

So yes, I do agree that John makes some very stupid decisions and that his judgement gets seriously clouded at times. I wouldn't go as far as to say that he outlived his usefulness but there is deffinitely a scope for improvement.
 

I think the practical problem with your suggestion re the stairs is that Sherlock's breathing has already become noticeably compromised in Leinster Gardens, where he's standing up. He's struggling for oxygen and the oxygen isn't arriving. As you know, a great deal better than I do, normal human beings possess a lot more lungs than they actually need; it is the heart which limits function, so, short of a pneumothorax, or PE, Sherlock should not be in the state of respiratory distress which he is in that early on. Obviously he is in pain, and that pain would become more severe the longer he was detached from the pump, but I can say, from considerable personal experience, that the most likely response to uncontrolled pain in that area is to breathe very shallowly. Sherlock isn't doing that in Leinster Gardens; he's gasping and sighing. And he gasps rather more after he bends over to pick up the coin, by which point we see that he's sweating, and in the condition usually described as 'very poorly'.

So, as you note, John has gone from hauling his friend off to Barts because wow, excitement and wow, drama; Sherlock is damaging his health, to not noticing in Leinster Gardens that Sherlock looks as if he's about to pop his clogs. Sherlock does say then, 'Now talk, and sort it out; do it quickly', but clearly the Watsons did not wish to do so, since they then head off to Baker St.

Those are the facts which the writer presents us with, and whilst Sherlock can and does forgive John for it all, I really do not think that Mycroft would. Add to that John's apparent destruction of information which would identify the enemies he has acquired along with his (fake) wife, and we can see that Moftiss have set up a situation where Mycroft would, inevitably, view John as a liability. It should be fascinating to see how Moftiss get themselves out of it.

 

I think this also very clearly illustrates exactly why John could not be trusted to (1) know about Sherlock having to fake his death and the reasons for it prior to the actual jump; (2) couldn't be a useful ally/agent during the hiatus--- he's unstable, and would have jepordized the entire mission, or gotten himself and Sherlock killed. 

He's a lovely person, but too ruled by his emotions-- and so, yes-- liability. 

 

February 17, 2014 10:51 am  #60


Re: In defence of Dr Watson

Okay, I now have an answer that may solve all of this discussion. I called it "Eight Minutes". Willow, what do you think?


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