BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Dr Watson: bipolar, booze, opiates, methamphetamine, steroids...

Willow · February 14, 2014 11:51 pm

Well, still in pursuit of the answer to John's distinctly erratic course in Season 3: the obvious question which come to mind is to wonder about his mind

Starting with the short film, where he seemed apathetic and listless, having difficulty in even going through the motions when Lestrade visits him, sitting in a cold, almost sterile room staring into space, which seems to suggest that he is depressed, if not clinically depressed.

Fast forward to TEH, where we learn that he has abandoned Mrs Hudson, and visits her apparently only to let her know that John is now a really happy bunny, who may even be able to produce more happy bunnies, should the bunny of his choice consent. By the time we reach the restaurant it is clear that he is a tad apprehensive, rehearsing his 'prepared words' to propose to someone he hasn't known for very long, but a really happy bunny.

And then he goes berserk, a useful characteristic back in the days of the Vikings when a good berserker was worth his weight in gold, but not in London in the 21st century; here it's a distinct disadvantage, and we watch as he moves from berserker -uncontrollable rage- to calculated violence in a downwards spiral of eating places. I say calculated because the choice of a head butt to avoid hurting his fists still further suggests that he's thinking about how to inflict more pain on Sherlock without inflicting it on himself. The person he is attacking has made no attempt to hit him back, yet John keeps going. It is difficult to convey to people unaccustomed to the social mores of middle and upper class England just how badly it breaks the implicit rules; you do not do that. Not even when you are really, really angry; you do not do that. John was an officer and a gentleman, and officers and gentlemen do not carry on hitting someone who is not hitting you back.

The fact that John does suggests that either he is no longer an officer and a gentleman, which is unthinkable within ACD canon, or he has a major problem; he cannot control himself and he deteriorates further and further as the night progresses.

It is difficult to find reliable research on the drug abuse within medical professions, for a number of reasons; the primary one being that it is exceedingly dangerous to the careers of people within those professions to admit that they have a drug problem in any size, shape or form. It appears that physicians are slightly more likely to become alcoholics as they age, by comparison with the general population, particularly where there is a family history of alcoholism; that bottle of scotch which John was drinking as he sat watching his birthday video in broad daylight is not a good sign. However, drug usage is often a matter of opportunity, and people in medical professions have more access than the general public.

A pharmacist has more obvious opportunity than a GP, but even though self prescription is frowned upon, it still happens, and it is likely that John would have used a variety of drugs during his Army career; for example, crystal meth was used during WW2 by Axis forces, and similar drugs were, and are still used by Armed Forces around the world.

He would have been on major pain meds following his injuries, and when we first met him he was limping from psychosomatic pain; this provides some reason to wonder whether he is the person we should be worrying about when it comes to opiates, rather than Sherlock. His extreme anger may be a result of withdrawal symptoms; he's trying to clean himself up for his relationship with Mary but he can't handle the stress of seeing Sherlock apparently returning from the dead. Does he think he may be hallucinating?

His extreme mood swings, his use of violence, his over the top happiness, his over the top anger, all suggest that there is something badly wrong with him; I hesitate to commit myself to suggesting that he may have bipolar disorder, since Belis would already have made the theoretical diagnosis, but John isn't right.

So, what drugs other than booze, opiates and ramped up amphetamines might John be taking? Steroids seem a possibility; the phenomenon known as 'roid rage' is usually associated with body builders who use cocktails of illegal drugs, but commonly prescribed steroids are known to induce both euphoria and mania, and John seems to be displaying both.

Oh, and one final thought; is someone poisoning John? Administering chemicals/drugs to him without his knowledge, so he is capable of behaving as he did in Baker St, when he threatened to kill Sherlock. He nearly lost Sherlock to real death because of his all consuming anger, and yet at Christmas he seemed almost, but not quite, his own self again. Perhaps his return to Baker St removed the easier opportunity to dose him up without him being aware of it...

Tinks · February 15, 2014 12:14 am

Well I hadn't thought of the idea that he may have been unknowingly drugged before,but it's certainly not outside the realms of possibility, imo - something has to explain him being so out of character, anyway - people have offered excuses for his behaviour towards Sherlock at Baker Street, and while I may not necessarily agree with them, I can see their point, even if I find that scene devastating.
But I can't understand his watching Sherlock go away, believing he'll never see him again,for a crime he wouldn't have committed if it weren't for John's wife (the one who almost killed him), without a word of protest or thanks - that's not John - you know? The guy who punched someone for saying Sherlock looked like " a weirdo"?
Something is off, that's for sure.
Could it be that he and Mycroft are in on something that Sherlock and Mary don't know about yet?
I don't know, but hopefully all will be explained.

Willow · February 15, 2014 1:35 am

Tinks wrote:
Well I hadn't thought of the idea that he may have been unknowingly drugged before,but it's certainly not outside the realms of possibility, imo - something has to explain him being so out of character, anyway - people have offered excuses for his behaviour towards Sherlock at Baker Street, and while I may not necessarily agree with them, I can see their point, even if I find that scene devastating.
But I can't understand his watching Sherlock go away, believing he'll never see him again,for a crime he wouldn't have committed if it weren't for John's wife (the one who almost killed him), without a word of protest or thanks - that's not John - you know? The guy who punched someone for saying Sherlock looked like " a weirdo"?
Something is off, that's for sure.
Could it be that he and Mycroft are in on something that Sherlock and Mary don't know about yet?
I don't know, but hopefully all will be explained.

That's a really good point about John and Mycroft; we are so used to their somewhat antagonistic relationship that it does make it easy for us not to spot the possibility that John and Mycroft are acting on their own plan, and keeping every one else out of the plan, thus inverting TRF where John was left out of the plan, admittedly for the best of reasons.

The airfield scene is so brutal that I, like you, cannot find Dr Watson in the figure who apparently really saw no reason to apologise, or say thank you, or even allow his friend to choose one of the baby's names, because Mary has announced that she chooses the names.

This just doesn't make sense

RavenMorganLeigh · February 15, 2014 5:02 am

I think , honestly? John is unravelling. I think he has this idea of who he really is--- and it's not actually-- who he is. He thinks that he's kind, compassionate, wants a normal life, even-tempered, not alcoholic like his sister, not gay like his sister, not a drama queen, he's always thought of himself as the sane one.

But this is a construct-- and now its falling apart.

I think he's being confronted with who he really is, and *that's* what he can't handle. Mary's deception forces him to see what a sham his self-image has become.

But this is only *my* opinion, I could also be on crack! ;-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 15, 2014 5:03 am)

Wiggins · February 15, 2014 8:08 am

Willow wrote:
Tinks wrote:
Well I hadn't thought of the idea that he may have been unknowingly drugged before,but it's certainly not outside the realms of possibility, imo - something has to explain him being so out of character, anyway - people have offered excuses for his behaviour towards Sherlock at Baker Street, and while I may not necessarily agree with them, I can see their point, even if I find that scene devastating.
But I can't understand his watching Sherlock go away, believing he'll never see him again,for a crime he wouldn't have committed if it weren't for John's wife (the one who almost killed him), without a word of protest or thanks - that's not John - you know? The guy who punched someone for saying Sherlock looked like " a weirdo"?
Something is off, that's for sure.
Could it be that he and Mycroft are in on something that Sherlock and Mary don't know about yet?
I don't know, but hopefully all will be explained.
That's a really good point about John and Mycroft; we are so used to their somewhat antagonistic relationship that it does make it easy for us not to spot the possibility that John and Mycroft are acting on their own plan, and keeping every one else out of the plan, thus inverting TRF where John was left out of the plan, admittedly for the best of reasons.

The airfield scene is so brutal that I, like you, cannot find Dr Watson in the figure who apparently really saw no reason to apologise, or say thank you, or even allow his friend to choose one of the baby's names, because Mary has announced that she chooses the names.

This just doesn't make sense

Again with the baby names.

Why does everyone keep saying only Mary gets to choose names.: she said no to John having full say without her input (which was to put Sherlocks name in there correct?) not that he can't have input and she has sold naming rights.

Lets stop reframing things.

I'm not sure John is acting so out go character for someone who has gone through the areas he has in the last few years.

Sherlocks death and all surely leave unresolved emotions just under the surface so any other stress involving sherlock is going to bring about a lashing out .

We can't ignore the situation- his wife just shot his best friend . His wife who had another man at gunpoint- tbe man they were going after and he has just say through a very dramatic scenario set up by Sherlock to hear his wife is another person entirely.

I dare say the best of us would struggle to not seem "out of character " with ourselves under these circumstances.

Lets not also forget the man is seeing a therapist. He has admitted issues. He was in war. He was injured in war. This changes people- while we onli know him as post war John, those changes may not be affecting him in day to day life but spring forth in stressful circumstances or during periods of time that have ongoing stress or change.

John has certainly been through that recently.

I don't think it has to be drugs poisoning nor extreme personality disorders.

It's just part of his issues he's working on .

And a normal reaction too. Even a person without history would lose himself in the same scenarios.

I also don't think he legitimately was threatening Sherlock. It was a hot moment and eloquent words don't come to mind. He wanted him to shut up and it worked.

Tinks · February 15, 2014 8:23 am

But if he's been through so much that it's caused him to appear to almost close down on Sherlock, why is he not closing down on his Wife, the person whose real name he doesn't even know? The one who shot his friend?
Sherlock hurt him for his own good - he's a character who needs his familiarity and his known people around him who played dead for two years and made no contact with the only friend he had, in order to keep that friend safe - and while that caused John tremendous pain, he honestly should know Sherlock well enough by now to know it wasn't just a game he was playing - it was done for a reason.
What Mary did was not Sherlock's fault. At all. If John still has problems with that then he needs to address them, but letting Sherlock throw everything away - again, and not making any acknowledgement of the fact.
No - I can't square that - unless as I said earlier, something else is going on.

Last edited by Tinks (February 15, 2014 8:25 am)

belis · February 15, 2014 12:26 pm

If I was to stick a bipolar label on anyone it would be Sherlock (he may just about meet the criteria for bipolar type II, particularly in season 2, if you squint hard enough). I don't think John fits into that pattern. I would say that to start with he is still grieving for Sherlock. There is a fine line between normal grief reaction, pathological grief and clinical depression. I can't rellay see any manic behaviour in John. He does act out at times and can be a bit out of control but his mood is not particularly elated, deffinitely not to a point of mania.

With regards to anger control issues, those are a common feature of PTSD. I always wondered if John was always so prone to loosing his temper or did this start after his injury in Afganistan. He pretty much recovered from the PTSD in season one but it's not uncommon for it to resourface with serious life events. He has plenty of those to come to terms with, both good and bad. Finally PTSD often goes hand in hand with substance missues so I wouldn't be that surprised if he was self medicating at some point. One could make a case to argue that the reason why he reacts the way he does to finding Sherlock in a drug den is becouse he projects his own guilt and insecurities on him.

I think if there is something wrong with him in clinical sence the PTSD would be on top of my differential +/- substances.

Willow · February 15, 2014 1:16 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I think , honestly? John is unravelling. I think he has this idea of who he really is--- and it's not actually-- who he is. He thinks that he's kind, compassionate, wants a normal life, even-tempered, not alcoholic like his sister, not gay like his sister, not a drama queen, he's always thought of himself as the sane one.

But this is a construct-- and now its falling apart.

I think he's being confronted with who he really is, and *that's* what he can't handle. Mary's deception forces him to see what a sham his self-image has become.

But this is only *my* opinion, I could also be on crack! ;-)

No; we are confining the crack to members of the cast

So, we have a John Watson so intent on what he wants to project - maturity- that he grows the most unflattering moustache in the history of facial hair; Sherlock is quite right in saying that it makes him look like an old man, and I suppose that this too may be an indicator that John's self image is a construct. He has lived his life denying that traits in the person closest to him, ie his sister, could ever possibly be within him too, and yet his reactions demonstrate the violence that alcoholics quite often display. And, of course, his sister can't grow a moustache

I still think he might have been wondering whether he was hallucinating when Sherlock finally makes him realise that the waiter is not a waiter, since that might go some way to explain that berserker fit, but is there also a possibility that John is jealous? He has been stuck in London looking at people's bunions whilst Sherlock has spent two years having fun, or rather, what John thinks of as fun; we have written a lot about John being jealous of people who knew when he didn't but I don't think we have considered whether John's rage stems from him feeling deprived of all the things he had come to expect as Sherlock's partner in the dragon slaying business.

Included in those is an element of being important; he may have been the junior part of the team but it was his blog, and the cameras were on him as well, and he has spent the last two years in obscurity, out of the
limelight, which brings us back to your point about John deceiving himself as to who he really is. John might wish to be the sane one, but he also needs to believe that he's important, that he's making a huge difference; a trauma surgeon yanking someone out of the jaws of death is at the forefront, whereas the GP is a background role.

As an aside I am exceedingly fortunate with my own GPs, who play a vital role in saving lives, including my own, so I am not suggesting in any way that they are inferior to the drama queens hamming it up in theatre; it's simply that John probably in his heart of hearts does think they are inferior, which means that John's perception of himself is down-graded.

So, even without any of the drugs he has access to, legally or otherwise, John's ego has taken a hammering, which in turn leads to him hammering Sherlock; I can accept that but I still feel that there is something more going on that we don't know about...

Wiggins · February 15, 2014 1:28 pm

Tinks wrote:
But if he's been through so much that it's caused him to appear to almost close down on Sherlock, why is he not closing down on his Wife, the person whose real name he doesn't even know? The one who shot his friend?
Sherlock hurt him for his own good - he's a character who needs his familiarity and his known people around him who played dead for two years and made no contact with the only friend he had, in order to keep that friend safe - and while that caused John tremendous pain, he honestly should know Sherlock well enough by now to know it wasn't just a game he was playing - it was done for a reason.
What Mary did was not Sherlock's fault. At all. If John still has problems with that then he needs to address them, but letting Sherlock throw everything away - again, and not making any acknowledgement of the fact.
No - I can't square that - unless as I said earlier, something else is going on.

Based on the length of hospital stay posts on the forum, John and Mary had been effectively separated for months following the incident and were just reuniting on Christmas.

I wouldn't call that just immediately forgiving her especially when you consider she's pregnant. A state that typically someone in a marriage, they were both happy when sherlock broke the news (other than johns annoyance that sherlock was telling him), would draw closer to the spouse.

During that time we have no reason to believe he and sherlock were at odds.

I think ignoring all that is just trying to fit the show into ones own construct.

Also, people are placing too much emphasis on behavior.

If the characters acted all even keeled like in reality, it wouldn't be exciting. Emotions are ramped up for dramatic factor.

People keep bringing up johns violence in TEH but I believe it was all for drama and a laugh.

Really they fight inTHREE restaurants? Not normal life.

Also follows the comedic rule of three.

There are things that yes are insights to the character that will be put in but Mofftiss has been pretty blunt with those- showing johns dreams and limp, Sherlocks mind palace.

I don't think they intend us to dig too deeply, emotions and inner feelings are on display . Most else is conjecture.

Can someone explain the doggedness of posters asserting John is gay?

KeepersPrice · February 15, 2014 1:39 pm

I didn't feel quite as 'cuddly' about John in this series as I have in the past; but I wonder how much of that has to do with choices the writers, director, and Mr. Freeman seem to have made. It seems as if they decided to make John more than the steadfast 'side-kick' and 'conductor of light' and have made him more of an equal partner in this series with his own story arc. They have beefed things up and made him a bit more overtly BAMFy -a character development that might have been needed to keep Martin interested in his role. John is no longer so completely enthralled with Sherlock. His anger at Sherlock's return was in proportion to his grief. He has moved-on (somewhat) and started a family. He has new priorities. He finally openly declared his love for Sherlock; but there was no doubt, with Mary in the picture, that his love is platonic and filial. (Perhaps another deliberate choice to keep fan slash at bay? I don't know). I'm having a hard time thinking this shift in John's character is anything more than that. Not drugs or mental illness. It makes sense within the arc of the series. Sorry, but I do tend to think more in theatrical terms rather than seeing these characters as real people. But I must say I do miss the old John. I really don't want him to move-on. I liked him as he was. But that's my problem - not the writer's.

Willow · February 15, 2014 2:10 pm

belis wrote:
If I was to stick a bipolar label on anyone it would be Sherlock (he may just about meet the criteria for bipolar type II, particularly in season 2, if you squint hard enough). I don't think John fits into that pattern. I would say that to start with he is still grieving for Sherlock. There is a fine line between normal grief reaction, pathological grief and clinical depression. I can't rellay see any manic behaviour in John. He does act out at times and can be a bit out of control but his mood is not particularly elated, deffinitely not to a point of mania.

With regards to anger control issues, those are a common feature of PTSD. I always wondered if John was always so prone to loosing his temper or did this start after his injury in Afganistan. He pretty much recovered from the PTSD in season one but it's not uncommon for it to resourface with serious life events. He has plenty of those to come to terms with, both good and bad. Finally PTSD often goes hand in hand with substance missues so I wouldn't be that surprised if he was self medicating at some point. One could make a case to argue that the reason why he reacts the way he does to finding Sherlock in a drug den is becouse he projects his own guilt and insecurities on him.

I think if there is something wrong with him in clinical sence the PTSD would be on top of my differential +/- substances.

Please don't damage your eyes on our behalf; I'll take your word for it without squinting

And I had overlooked the thing which should be at the top of the list; John's PTSD. It's a pity you have ruled out comorbid bipolar because he could then have mania as a result of taking SSRIs, but I do accept that there is is a large gap between what ordinary people think of as mania and the real deal. Also, this is not an episode of House

So, to summarise, Sherlock's mental health diagnosis skills are on a par with his belief in shooting as surgery; he isn't any good at it. John's marriage is a serious life event which could well have precipitated a relapse in his PTSD, and we see him having nightmares and then almost immediately going directly to the drug den where he attacks Billy, using controlled and deliberate violence, and then goes completely over the top when he discovers Sherlock.

For the benefit of fanfic writers everywhere, what substances would commonly turn up being misused in such situations? I know that failing to take their medication in a timely fashion can be a major problem in people with PTSD, but what self medication might John engage in?

It's a pity there is no emoticon for 'pretty please'

belis · February 15, 2014 2:45 pm

Willow wrote:
It's a pity you have ruled out comorbid bipolar because he could then have mania as a result of taking SSRIs, but I do accept that there is is a large gap between what ordinary people think of as mania and the real deal.

Strictly speaking you don't need to have bipolar illness to have a manic or hypomanic episode triggered by SSRIs. Although if it does happen it rises an index of suspition that it may not be unipolar depression after all.

There is a large gap. lol It's one of the most common GP refferals in outpatients. Please see this lady or gentelman who I believe to suffer from bipolar illness. When you speak to them it turns out that they thair 'mania' involved a bit of 'out of control' shopping or being 'more irritable and argumentative'. This is in a striking contrast to a minimum of one week of mood elation leading to complete inability to enagge in normal social and work commitments accmpanied by pressure of speech, flight of ideas, gradiosity, lack of sleep and often psychotic symptoms.

I can't quite get my head around it why so many people seem to be disapointed when they are told that no, they don't have bipolar illness. You would think that not having a serious illness requiring lifetime of meds and often periods of hospitalisation would be good news. But I digress, back to Sherlock.

Willow wrote:
For the benefit of fanfic writers everywhere, what substances would commonly turn up being misused in such situations? I know that failing to take their medication in a timely fashion can be a major problem in people with PTSD, but what self medication might John engage in?

Any substances to be honest depending on personal preference. I would see John turning to alcohol rather than any street drugs to be honest. If anything benzos would be a possibility. There is a good chance that he had them prescribed at some point after returning from Afganistan so he would be familar with the effects. It's not that uncommon for doctors to self medicate with those to help with sleep problems, stress etc It's not that difficult to get hold of them as most don't require a controlled drug prescription.

Last edited by belis (February 15, 2014 2:48 pm)

Willow · February 15, 2014 2:51 pm

Wiggins wrote:
Willow wrote:
Tinks wrote:
Well I hadn't thought of the idea that he may have been unknowingly drugged before,but it's certainly not outside the realms of possibility, imo - something has to explain him being so out of character, anyway - people have offered excuses for his behaviour towards Sherlock at Baker Street, and while I may not necessarily agree with them, I can see their point, even if I find that scene devastating.
But I can't understand his watching Sherlock go away, believing he'll never see him again,for a crime he wouldn't have committed if it weren't for John's wife (the one who almost killed him), without a word of protest or thanks - that's not John - you know? The guy who punched someone for saying Sherlock looked like " a weirdo"?
Something is off, that's for sure.
Could it be that he and Mycroft are in on something that Sherlock and Mary don't know about yet?
I don't know, but hopefully all will be explained.
That's a really good point about John and Mycroft; we are so used to their somewhat antagonistic relationship that it does make it easy for us not to spot the possibility that John and Mycroft are acting on their own plan, and keeping every one else out of the plan, thus inverting TRF where John was left out of the plan, admittedly for the best of reasons.

The airfield scene is so brutal that I, like you, cannot find Dr Watson in the figure who apparently really saw no reason to apologise, or say thank you, or even allow his friend to choose one of the baby's names, because Mary has announced that she chooses the names.

This just doesn't make sense

Again with the baby names.

Why does everyone keep saying only Mary gets to choose names.: she said no to John having full say without her input (which was to put Sherlocks name in there correct?) not that he can't have input and she has sold naming rights.

Lets stop reframing things.

I'm not sure John is acting so out go character for someone who has gone through the areas he has in the last few years.

Sherlocks death and all surely leave unresolved emotions just under the surface so any other stress involving sherlock is going to bring about a lashing out .

We can't ignore the situation- his wife just shot his best friend . His wife who had another man at gunpoint- tbe man they were going after and he has just say through a very dramatic scenario set up by Sherlock to hear his wife is another person entirely.

I dare say the best of us would struggle to not seem "out of character " with ourselves under these circumstances.

Lets not also forget the man is seeing a therapist. He has admitted issues. He was in war. He was injured in war. This changes people- while we onli know him as post war John, those changes may not be affecting him in day to day life but spring forth in stressful circumstances or during periods of time that have ongoing stress or change.

John has certainly been through that recently.

I don't think it has to be drugs poisoning nor extreme personality disorders.

It's just part of his issues he's working on .

And a normal reaction too. Even a person without history would lose himself in the same scenarios.

I also don't think he legitimately was threatening Sherlock. It was a hot moment and eloquent words don't come to mind. He wanted him to shut up and it worked.

The only thing we have about John's therapist is the short exchange between him and Sholto, where Sholto specifically asks John 'no more need for the trick cyclist ? (military slang for psychiatrist) John replies:

'No. I-I go now and then. Sort of a checkup'.

So John's former commanding officer is asking him whether he's been seeing his psychiatrist, which suggests that Sholto thinks, at the very least, that John needed a psychiatrist in the past, and John is equivocal about whether he really has been seeing his therapist.

As Belis has noted, PTSD is frequently associated with anger control issues, and substance misuse, and Sholto is well aware of it too. I see this as an expression of concern for John, from a man who knew John long before we met him.

We will have to agree to disagree about the death threat; I have watched that over and over again, and I really think John meant it.

Willow · February 15, 2014 3:21 pm

Tinks wrote:
But if he's been through so much that it's caused him to appear to almost close down on Sherlock, why is he not closing down on his Wife, the person whose real name he doesn't even know? The one who shot his friend?
Sherlock hurt him for his own good - he's a character who needs his familiarity and his known people around him who played dead for two years and made no contact with the only friend he had, in order to keep that friend safe - and while that caused John tremendous pain, he honestly should know Sherlock well enough by now to know it wasn't just a game he was playing - it was done for a reason.
What Mary did was not Sherlock's fault. At all. If John still has problems with that then he needs to address them, but letting Sherlock throw everything away - again, and not making any acknowledgement of the fact.
No - I can't square that - unless as I said earlier, something else is going on.

And I finally worked out why poison made its way into the list; at the wedding Sherlock is talking about methods of murder, and he says that he would murder John by poisoning him

The look on Mary's face when he says that is definitely interesting...

Willow · February 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Wiggins wrote:
Tinks wrote:
But if he's been through so much that it's caused him to appear to almost close down on Sherlock, why is he not closing down on his Wife, the person whose real name he doesn't even know? The one who shot his friend?
Sherlock hurt him for his own good - he's a character who needs his familiarity and his known people around him who played dead for two years and made no contact with the only friend he had, in order to keep that friend safe - and while that caused John tremendous pain, he honestly should know Sherlock well enough by now to know it wasn't just a game he was playing - it was done for a reason.
What Mary did was not Sherlock's fault. At all. If John still has problems with that then he needs to address them, but letting Sherlock throw everything away - again, and not making any acknowledgement of the fact.
No - I can't square that - unless as I said earlier, something else is going on.
Based on the length of hospital stay posts on the forum, John and Mary had been effectively separated for months following the incident and were just reuniting on Christmas.

I wouldn't call that just immediately forgiving her especially when you consider she's pregnant. A state that typically someone in a marriage, they were both happy when sherlock broke the news (other than johns annoyance that sherlock was telling him), would draw closer to the spouse.

During that time we have no reason to believe he and sherlock were at odds.

I think ignoring all that is just trying to fit the show into ones own construct.

Also, people are placing too much emphasis on behavior.

If the characters acted all even keeled like in reality, it wouldn't be exciting. Emotions are ramped up for dramatic factor.

People keep bringing up johns violence in TEH but I believe it was all for drama and a laugh.

Really they fight inTHREE restaurants? Not normal life.

Also follows the comedic rule of three.

There are things that yes are insights to the character that will be put in but Mofftiss has been pretty blunt with those- showing johns dreams and limp, Sherlocks mind palace.

I don't think they intend us to dig too deeply, emotions and inner feelings are on display . Most else is conjecture.

Can someone explain the doggedness of posters asserting John is gay?

I haven't a clue on your last question; it baffles me as well

However, John's violence isn't confined to TEH; the rule of three was followed up by the Sign of Three, which segues into HLV with John deciding to beat up a junkie for no apparent reason. He wasn't being attacked, he wasn't defending himself, it was completely unnecessary, and he obviously had fun doing it. These are not the qualities of an officer and a gentleman, which is why it's so difficult to reconcile this with canon. Belis has noted that his actions at the drug den may represent him projecting his own guilt and insecurities about substance misuse, in the context of his PTSD, and I regard that as a rational way of analysing those scenes and his subsequent actions in dragging Sherlock off to the hospital; after all, his former commanding officer Sholto is remarkably blunt about asking John whether he's still seeing his psychiatrist, which suggests that John really did need a psychiatrist in the first place.

Moftiss are, of course, free to do what they like but they do seem to be sliding into having their cake and eating it; the canonical John Watson would not have carried on hitting someone who was not hitting him back. That iron rule applies to everyone, not just Sherlock; it's just not done. ..

belis · February 15, 2014 4:21 pm

Willow wrote:
However, John's violence isn't confined to TEH; the rule of three was followed up by the Sign of Three, which segues into HLV with John deciding to beat up a junkie for no apparent reason. He wasn't being attacked, he wasn't defending himself, it was completely unnecessary, and he obviously had fun doing it.

The junkie in question did pull out the knife though and attempted to threaten John with it. The way I see it John didn't beat him up. He disarmed him in a pretty controlled manner. His arm may got a bit twisted in the process but it's not that easy to take a weapon of someone in a way that doesn't put you at risk of being stabbed and at the same time inflicts no pain or damage to the perpetrator whatsoever. If someone brandishes a weapon I interpret it as an intention to use it. The next question is do I take it off them or do I run for cover. The first option tends to make better TV. ;)

Last edited by belis (February 15, 2014 4:22 pm)

Willow · February 15, 2014 5:00 pm

belis wrote:
Willow wrote:
However, John's violence isn't confined to TEH; the rule of three was followed up by the Sign of Three, which segues into HLV with John deciding to beat up a junkie for no apparent reason. He wasn't being attacked, he wasn't defending himself, it was completely unnecessary, and he obviously had fun doing it.
The junkie in question did pull out the knife though and attempted to threaten John with it. The way I see it John didn't beat him up. He disarmed him in a pretty controlled manner. His arm may got a bit twisted in the process but it's not that easy to take a weapon of someone in a way that doesn't put you at risk of being stabbed and at the same time inflicts no pain or damage to the perpetrator whatsoever. If someone brandishes a weapon I interpret it as an intention to use it. The next question is do I take it off them or do I run for cover. The first option tends to make better TV. ;)

I think you are supposed to call Security, taking care to dispose of your tyre iron safely whilst you are running away; I will concede that I spent a hefty chunk of time watching my daughter work her way up to black belt first dan, by which point they are supposed to be able to deal with a couple of people with knives, and that I had my first lessons in what to do about sharp pointy things from a Ghurka serving with my father. I was eight at the time, and really didn't realise that this was somewhat unusual until I was much older; fencing was the next best thing, but it always seemed a bit tame.

However, you are perfectly right to note that whilst the chap in question obviously hadn't the faintest idea of what to do with a knife beyond, possibly, buttering some bread, John was sensible in relieving him of it before he managed to trip over and accidentally impale himself upon it, and thus he was practising proactive medicine in a thoroughly commendable way

I suspect that it's the fact that John was enjoying it which colours my reactions...

belis · February 15, 2014 5:26 pm

Willow wrote:
However, you are perfectly right to note that whilst the chap in question obviously hadn't the faintest idea of what to do with a knife beyond, possibly, buttering some bread, John was sensible in relieving him of it before he managed to trip over and accidentally impale himself upon it, and thus he was practising proactive medicine in a thoroughly commendable way

I suspect that it's the fact that John was enjoying it which colours my reactions...

He was clearly a very vulnarable individual, possibly under influence of substances, and as such could not be trusted with a knife. It was very much in intrest of his own safety to have this knife removed and to be assisted to sit down to relax and reflect on the situation. ;)

With regards to calling the police (as I very much doubt any sort of security firm would be covering that area or intrested in getting into a situation where weapons are involved) I don't think the incident would be high on their lists of priorities. John got there with a job to do and in order to find Isac he had to make sure that he is not going to get stabbed in the back by a random junkie. I don't have much problem with that.

I agree that he enjoys it. He does like a power trip from time to time. I don't think though that the enjoyment of the situation makes him take it to far in this scenario. If he continued to inflict pain after he got rid of the knife just for the sake of it, that's when I would start feeling uncomfortable.

SusiGo · February 15, 2014 7:12 pm

Sorry, but I really do not understand this wish to find mental ill-health in the characters and classify them according to certain medical categories. The only thing we know for a fact is that John has been treated for PTSD and that Sherlock in all probability has taken drugs in the past and has used them again (for whatever reason) at the beginning of HLV.
Of course I am neither a psychiatrist nor a doctor but then most of the viewers are not.
People who suffer from PTSD and experience so many tragic and shocking events like John Watson may diverge from what is deemed normal behaviour without falling into a medical category like bipolar disorder.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 15, 2014 7:56 pm

Willow wrote:
Wiggins wrote:
Tinks wrote:
But if he's been through so much that it's caused him to appear to almost close down on Sherlock, why is he not closing down on his Wife, the person whose real name he doesn't even know? The one who shot his friend?
Sherlock hurt him for his own good - he's a character who needs his familiarity and his known people around him who played dead for two years and made no contact with the only friend he had, in order to keep that friend safe - and while that caused John tremendous pain, he honestly should know Sherlock well enough by now to know it wasn't just a game he was playing - it was done for a reason.
What Mary did was not Sherlock's fault. At all. If John still has problems with that then he needs to address them, but letting Sherlock throw everything away - again, and not making any acknowledgement of the fact.
No - I can't square that - unless as I said earlier, something else is going on.
Based on the length of hospital stay posts on the forum, John and Mary had been effectively separated for months following the incident and were just reuniting on Christmas.

I wouldn't call that just immediately forgiving her especially when you consider she's pregnant. A state that typically someone in a marriage, they were both happy when sherlock broke the news (other than johns annoyance that sherlock was telling him), would draw closer to the spouse.

During that time we have no reason to believe he and sherlock were at odds.

I think ignoring all that is just trying to fit the show into ones own construct.

Also, people are placing too much emphasis on behavior.

If the characters acted all even keeled like in reality, it wouldn't be exciting. Emotions are ramped up for dramatic factor.

People keep bringing up johns violence in TEH but I believe it was all for drama and a laugh.

Really they fight inTHREE restaurants? Not normal life.

Also follows the comedic rule of three.

There are things that yes are insights to the character that will be put in but Mofftiss has been pretty blunt with those- showing johns dreams and limp, Sherlocks mind palace.

I don't think they intend us to dig too deeply, emotions and inner feelings are on display . Most else is conjecture.

Can someone explain the doggedness of posters asserting John is gay?
I haven't a clue on your last question; it baffles me as well

However, John's violence isn't confined to TEH; the rule of three was followed up by the Sign of Three, which segues into HLV with John deciding to beat up a junkie for no apparent reason. He wasn't being attacked, he wasn't defending himself, it was completely unnecessary, and he obviously had fun doing it. These are not the qualities of an officer and a gentleman, which is why it's so difficult to reconcile this with canon. Belis has noted that his actions at the drug den may represent him projecting his own guilt and insecurities about substance misuse, in the context of his PTSD, and I regard that as a rational way of analysing those scenes and his subsequent actions in dragging Sherlock off to the hospital; after all, his former commanding officer Sholto is remarkably blunt about asking John whether he's still seeing his psychiatrist, which suggests that John really did need a psychiatrist in the first place.

Moftiss are, of course, free to do what they like but they do seem to be sliding into having their cake and eating it; the canonical John Watson would not have carried on hitting someone who was not hitting him back. That iron rule applies to everyone, not just Sherlock; it's just not done. ..

I'm not saying that John is gay-- I think he may have tendencies, which is why he's bordering on homophobic-- in the "phobic" sense of the word. As in so sensitive about the very notion of being gay, that he even yells at Mrs. Hudson over it. Maybe he got teased about his sister one too many times, and now freaks out over being percieved as being gay. Keep in mind that we never, ever see his sister, who often gets written off as "the alcoholic lesbian". But we only have John's POV on this, and his behavior suggests some guilt, hostility, and conflicted feelings...A sense of humor about it might have worked better.

I really don't understand the need to make Mary a "good guy" by blaming Sherlock, by saying it's his fault Mary shot him. To teach him a lesson, she ***killed him***? Really?

The reason I don't buy the "Mary saved Sherlock" argument is because of the Mind Palace sequence immediately following the shooting. It's all about Sherlock's inner Molly, Anderson and Mycroft telling Sherlock how to NOT DIE.

If Mary, indeed, was indulging in a little bit of vindictive "surgery", (just to teach him a lesson, and not to really hurt him) there would have been no need for that sequence.

Urrgh.