BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary saving Sherlock

QuiteExtraordinary · February 21, 2014 5:06 pm

That's why I came up with thoughts like that ... A way to balance things again after what Mary did would be to say Sherlock benefitted in some way from getting "almost" shot.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 22, 2014 9:07 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
That's why I came up with thoughts like that ... A way to balance things again after what Mary did would be to say Sherlock benefitted in some way from getting "almost" shot.

Just curious-- but what do you mean by balance?

besleybean · February 22, 2014 9:16 pm

Balance as in shooting him was bad, but some good came out of it.

Willow · February 22, 2014 9:44 pm

But Sherlock wasn't almost shot, he was shot. I have never been shot, but I have been very seriously ill on a number of occasions, and whilst you could argue that this had benefits in drawing my family and friends closer, all of us would have been happy to forgo this opportunity in favour of something which was rather more fun.

In the end, Mary almost killed Sherlock because her obsession with John provided her with justification to do anything she wished if it enabled her to carry on getting what she wanted. She is not going to change because she sees no reason why she should change; John's willingness to blind himself to that fact is going to make her worse, not better, because the next time she shoots someone she will be able to count upon John's assistance on minor details like getting rid of the body.

He has, after all, assured her that dealing with her problems in the future is his privilege; he can hardly jib at disposing of some inconvenient corpses

Tinks · February 23, 2014 1:22 am

Both, for me, Swanpride - there was no need to shoot him and shoot him n such a damaging way - he'd offered to help her, he clearly meant it - if she had time to shoot, she had time to ask for his silence until she'd spoken with him alone.
Then. Yes, she shot SHERLOCK - her Husband's best friend, who'd shown her an affection that was so rare from him - cold, calculated and risky.
Sherlock pushed things to the limit in The Great Game and at one point left the old woman in Moriarty's hands for longer than needed because he thought he could get a step ahead of Moriarty and save more lives - his actions were designed to help others, Mary was only thinking about herself.
Ok, in the end the old lady died, but this was because she said too much, not because of what Sherlock did.
Sherlock was clearly upset that she was killed - he tried to save her by telling her not to talk.
Mary didn't show any remorse for Sherlock's suffering - just contempt and anger that he'd told John about her.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 23, 2014 2:23 am

Swanpride wrote:
I wonder if so many people are angry with Mary because she SHOT Sherlock, or angry with her because she shot SHERLOCK. Is it really the fact that she made a questionable decision which is so bothersome? Sherlock just left the old woman in Moriarty's hands for hours, risking her life, because he wanted to use the time to investigate further. It's true that he couldn't predict that Moriarty would kill her because she started to describe him (if that was really the reason and not just an excuse, after all Moriarty revealed himself not that long after, so there wasn't really that much need to keep her from describing his voice), but he basically left her in front of a weapon for a goal he perceived as more important. And considering this, isn't it logical that he would understand her motivation? After all, he himself is ready to bargain with the life of other people, too.

Okay. I'm not actually angry at Mary, I'm unhappy with what her character arc is telling people is acceptable: that anything and everything is "okay", including shooting someone, lying about your identity, pretending to be someone's freind, and/or using them until their purpose has been served-- and then shooting them, using manipulation to get what you want. etc. etc, --- that just because she's in love, we should forgive and forget.

NONE of that is even remotely "okay" or excusable--- using the excuse that you've done it to "protect your relationship" is (1) dangerous behavior indicative of psycopathic tendencies; and (2) really illustrative of the fact that the "beloved's" feelings actually DON'T MATTER. Love is not enough.

What matters to Mary is "Keeping John", but not John's feelings, not what's best for him, not his best interest-- because it's all about Mary. She simply cannot see the other side of things; and that doesn't mean she can't feel emotions, at all. What it means is that she is incapable of putting John's needs and well-being first. If she could, she would have known that John would be absolutley devastated by Sherlock's death. She knows what happened to John when he "died" before!

She was willing to make John experience the loss of his best freind all over again, as long as she got what she wanted, it was more than acceptable to her.

She knows how John feels about lies and betrayal. Shooting Sherlock is a betrayal-- of John's trust and love. The only remorse she's shown about lying about who she is and shooting Sherlock-- was that she got caught.

All of this does not make her a less compelling character, indeed, it makes her more intriguing. But it's not necessary to mentally wipe the slate clean for her, or make her out to be a "good person", when she's actually pretty dangerous and amoral. What it does require is that we view her as a very complex character.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 23, 2014 2:25 am)

besleybean · February 23, 2014 8:43 am

I can see where you're coming from on this, because this is what I've been arguing with BBC Sherlock all along.
The violence in it would be quite unacceptable in real life, I only accept it because it's a TV show.
Though I would find it odd for people to be so hard on Maty and CAM...as far as we know, he hasn't killed anybody.- or even attempted to.
On the contrary, Sherlock murdered CAM in cold blood and I haven't heard too may people reject Sherlock.

Tinks · February 23, 2014 8:59 am

I think CAM was threatening to have Mary killed at the end, but I can't imagine him actually doing the dirty work of Murder himself.
I think certain acts we accept because it's "only TV" and we - just about - accept what Sherlock did because he did it to save Mary and protect his Brother. He was absolutely backed into a corner and took what he saw as the only way out (he had also learned that CAM had indirectly driven someone to suicide) - if I'm really honest, though, I'm really unhappy that they had Sherlock do this; especially as I think the writers were trying to show us that he's similar to Mary, and I actually think he couldn't be more different.
With Mary, she coldly put a bullet into someone her Husband loves, and who has offered her friendship and protection - I realise this might be too strong a way of putting this, and I mean no offence by it, but I feel almost as though we've seen an act of Domestic Violence and are being asked to accept and condone it and love the person who carried it out.
I can't do that at the moment.

besleybean · February 23, 2014 9:04 am

I just feel we have to acknowledge Sherlock and John's acceptance...for now.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 23, 2014 9:17 am

besleybean wrote:
I just feel we have to acknowledge Sherlock and John's acceptance...for now.

Speaking only for myself-- I ackowledge their acceptance of Mary wholeheartedly, as I do the notion that they may be on Crack! :-)

besleybean · February 23, 2014 9:23 am

Well we know John isn't!

Last edited by besleybean (February 23, 2014 10:59 am)

besleybean · February 23, 2014 10:59 am

Exactly.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 23, 2014 12:14 pm

I agree with what Swanpride said.

The relationship between Sherlock and Mary surely isn't a healthy one, but that goes for the relationship between Sherlock and John as well.

It's true that Sherlock offered his help before Mary shot him, but it's questionable if he could really have been useful at that point. He was on drugs, for example, after all we know.
It was also made quite clear that once Sherlock had decided he wanted to wake up it was quite easy, even though he had already flatlined. Before that he followed Mycroft's and Molly's instructions, but what I missed was a real fight for survival. I got the Impression he could have woken up earlier if he had tried.

Willow · February 23, 2014 12:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
I can see where you're coming from on this, because this is what I've been arguing with BBC Sherlock all along.
The violence in it would be quite unacceptable in real life, I only accept it because it's a TV show.
Though I would find it odd for people to be so hard on Maty and CAM...as far as we know, he hasn't killed anybody.- or even attempted to.
On the contrary, Sherlock murdered CAM in cold blood and I haven't heard too may people reject Sherlock.

Er, placing someone inside a bonfire which is doused with petrol and set on fire would be perfectly adequate for a charge of attempted murder.

Just in case anyone is tempted by the thought

Willow · February 23, 2014 12:30 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
I agree with what Swanpride said.

The relationship between Sherlock and Mary surely isn't a healthy one, but that goes for the relationship between Sherlock and John as well.

It's true that Sherlock offered his help before Mary shot him, but it's questionable if he could really have been useful at that point. He was on drugs, for example, after all we know.
It was also made quite clear that once Sherlock had decided he wanted to wake up it was quite easy, even though he had already flatlined. Before that he followed Mycroft's and Molly's instructions, but what I missed was a real fight for survival. I got the Impression he could have woken up earlier if he had tried.

Sadly, not. I appreciate that it's nice to think that if you are dying all you have to do is work at it and you can miraculously wake up whenever you wish but it doesn't really work like that.

As to whether Sherlock could have been useful, you seem to ignore the fact that Sherlock already had a client, Lady Smallwood. He was acting on her behalf, and because he was shot he was unable to help her.

Oddly enough there are people in the world beyond Mary; I appreciate that Mary doesn't see it that way, but merely because she perceives the world solely in terms of what she wants doesn't mean the rest of us must follow suit...

QuiteExtraordinary · February 23, 2014 12:51 pm

Well, many people don't like Mary, but that also doesn't mean I must follow suit. (no offense)

Tinks · February 23, 2014 1:23 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that the show says that what Mary did was okay in any way...it just says that it is forgivable from John and Sherlock's perspective. That is not really the same.

I feel that we were left with Mary having been accepted by John and Sherlock as though nothing had happened, and with her being presented again as one of the gang - i.e: to be accepted as part of the "family" along with Mycroft, Mrs H, Lestrade etc., but that's just my opinion, of course.
As for the idea that what she did is forgiveable from John and Sherlock's perspective, I'm afraid I struggle with that at this point, too...viewers would, and maybe should, be disturbed by any scenario that depicts extreme violence by a person towards someone close to them that's apparantly so readily and easily forgiven - she didn't punch Sherlock; she almost took his life. In case he told her Husband about her.

@QE, I'd have to ask to agree to disagree with you on the point of it being "easy" for Sherlock to wake up - I saw the whole Mind Palace scene as him making a huge effort to hang onto life, and losing, then finally finding one last huge push to make it.

I'll reiterate again that my problem with Mary at the moment, is in what the writers did with her, and what they seem to have had John and Sherlock accept.

Last edited by Tinks (February 23, 2014 1:27 pm)

besleybean · February 23, 2014 1:27 pm

As I've hinted elsewhere.
I think John takes the lead from Sherlock on the acceptance...
We don't yet know why Sherlock has apparently forgiven Mary.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 23, 2014 2:03 pm

Willow wrote:
Sadly, not. I appreciate that it's nice to think that if you are dying all you have to do is work at it and you can miraculously wake up whenever you wish but it doesn't really work like that.

I assumed that waking up after flatlining is next to impossible, so if he manages to do that he should have been able to wake up earlier since it would have been easier then.

Tinks · February 23, 2014 2:16 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
Willow wrote:
Sadly, not. I appreciate that it's nice to think that if you are dying all you have to do is work at it and you can miraculously wake up whenever you wish but it doesn't really work like that.

I assumed that waking up after flatlining is next to impossible, so if he manages to do that he should have been able to wake up earlier since it would have been easier then.

He fought for life - the whole Mind Palace scene symbolised that.
He couldn't do it, though - until he found that final push and managed to claw his way back - it might be true to say that Moriarty's mention of John gave him the reason to try even harder but the scene overall was designed to show what a battle was going on.
It's like running a race when you've absolutely nothing left to give, and then when the end is in sight, you somehow manage to dig up a final spurt of energy.