BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary saving Sherlock

besleybean · February 18, 2014 5:24 pm

Well the Sherlock team seem to agree with you...
But I like to think Sherlock saving John and Mary is pretty selfless.

Tinks · February 18, 2014 5:28 pm

I think his humanisation has been fast tracked a bit, I agree.
But I think his two years away has changed him - his world moved on without him; he has to change and change quickly.
He sees how much John has suffered and tries so hard to be a better friend to him than in the past. He's trying to save him any more hurt.
He doesn't think he's that important to anyone so despite his arrogance I don't see it as ooc that he'd think it not the end of the world that Mary almost killed him (it would've been completely different had she almost killed John)
Plus Sherlock has always had a heart - he just usually keeps it well hidden.

Wiggins · February 18, 2014 8:03 pm

Tinks wrote:
I think his humanisation has been fast tracked a bit, I agree.
But I think his two years away has changed him - his world moved on without him; he has to change and change quickly.
He sees how much John has suffered and tries so hard to be a better friend to him than in the past. He's trying to save him any more hurt.
He doesn't think he's that important to anyone so despite his arrogance I don't see it as ooc that he'd think it not the end of the world that Mary almost killed him (it would've been completely different had she almost killed John)
Plus Sherlock has always had a heart - he just usually keeps it well hidden.

You're depressing me poor Sherlock <3

RavenMorganLeigh · February 18, 2014 9:17 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock. Of course he cares about others, and surely he's slowly learning to be less selfish, step by step, but I can't imagine that he could become entirely altruistic all of a sudden.

I definitely have to rewatch everything again. Just thinking about it is only confusing.

I don;t think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock at all, when you consider that he jumped off a building, and lost his life (his work, his friends, everything that made him happy) to save John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

And there are glimmers of his selflessness, all over the series. He cures John's limp; when John needs a loan, he takes a case that covers everything (apparently John couldn't always cover bills, etc, )

John and Sherlock have always had each other's backs-- it's never been one-sided at all.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 18, 2014 9:22 pm)

MahnSherlolly03 · February 18, 2014 11:16 pm

I've had a talk with my dad about Mary, and between that and some things I've seen on Pinterest, I've begun to accept and forgive her, and I think I can love her like I did again. I maintain that she was stupid and selfish, but I forgive her.

besleybean · February 19, 2014 6:42 am

People from an abusive/deprived past, can sometimes be selfish...

Tinks · February 19, 2014 9:49 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock. Of course he cares about others, and surely he's slowly learning to be less selfish, step by step, but I can't imagine that he could become entirely altruistic all of a sudden.

I definitely have to rewatch everything again. Just thinking about it is only confusing.
I don;t think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock at all, when you consider that he jumped off a building, and lost his life (his work, his friends, everything that made him happy) to save John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

And there are glimmers of his selflessness, all over the series. He cures John's limp; when John needs a loan, he takes a case that covers everything (apparently John couldn't always cover bills, etc, )

John and Sherlock have always had each other's backs-- it's never been one-sided at all.

This x 1000
Sherlock isn't a "House" type character who played nice sometimes to get away with doing something bad or to achieve a goal.
Sherlock plays bad to do good - he's not always understanding of social niceties but when it counts he is always a force for good.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 19, 2014 8:05 pm

I didn't phrase that well. What I meant was more like, Sherlock is a very selfish person. That doesn't mean everything he does is selfish, and it seems that he's more likely to do selfless things in S3 than he was before. For example, killing Magnussen was selfless, I'd say (he didn't have too many other options left though). But he can't suddenly be 100% selfless. That would be out of character.

besleybean · February 19, 2014 8:20 pm

Not many people I can think of are 100% selfless.

Tinks · February 19, 2014 8:31 pm

I honestly don't see him as selfish, though.
Self absorbed at times, yes - maybe or maybe not due to the mild autism he may or may not have.
But not selfish - there are many examples of him being selfless - the more so because he helps people in a way that they don't always realise he's doing it ( the fall to save his friends, the job to earn some cash for John, etc.)
But it's quite right to say no one is 100% selfless - he did let John believe they were about to be blown up in order to get him to accept Sherlock's apology, I suppose...although I think he also knows that John loves the occasional adrenaline rush!!
I really can't see him shooting Mary if he thought she stood in the way of his and John's friendship, though!

besleybean · February 19, 2014 8:33 pm

Me neither.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 19, 2014 8:51 pm

When he's being "selfish", it's not necessarily that he's doing something for himself or for his own profit, but that he does many things without considering the feelings of others. That may or may not have changed in S3. In the first post in this thread I assumed it had changed in HLV because if the theory is right he considered John's and Mary's feelings in the end.

besleybean · February 19, 2014 9:16 pm

He certainly did.

Zatoichi · February 21, 2014 5:09 am

Tinks wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock. Of course he cares about others, and surely he's slowly learning to be less selfish, step by step, but I can't imagine that he could become entirely altruistic all of a sudden.

I definitely have to rewatch everything again. Just thinking about it is only confusing.
I don;t think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock at all, when you consider that he jumped off a building, and lost his life (his work, his friends, everything that made him happy) to save John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

And there are glimmers of his selflessness, all over the series. He cures John's limp; when John needs a loan, he takes a case that covers everything (apparently John couldn't always cover bills, etc, )

John and Sherlock have always had each other's backs-- it's never been one-sided at all.

This x 1000
Sherlock isn't a "House" type character who played nice sometimes to get away with doing something bad or to achieve a goal.
Sherlock plays bad to do good - he's not always understanding of social niceties but when it counts he is always a force for good.

I also want to sign this x 1000! <3

Tinks wrote:
I really can't see him shooting Mary if he thought she stood in the way of his and John's friendship, though!

And this is exactly why I will never trust Mary, no matter how nice and sweet and badass and whatever she was laid out to be, no matter what John and Sherlock feel about her and no matter how charitable I try to be about her assassin-past and her actions in CAMs office. She threatened him, she was completely ready to put a bullent between his eyes this time. I am sure she will hunt down everyone who dares to step between her and what she thinks she deserves from life instead of baring any consequences of her past actions. (Prove me wrong, S4, please!) This is a whole different level of being selfish or acting in moral greyscales than we had with other characters in Sherlock, and one I feel I can not be comfortable with.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 21, 2014 5:34 am

Tinks wrote:
I honestly don't see him as selfish, though.
Self absorbed at times, yes - maybe or maybe not due to the mild autism he may or may not have.
But not selfish - there are many examples of him being selfless - the more so because he helps people in a way that they don't always realise he's doing it ( the fall to save his friends, the job to earn some cash for John, etc.)
But it's quite right to say no one is 100% selfless - he did let John believe they were about to be blown up in order to get him to accept Sherlock's apology, I suppose...although I think he also knows that John loves the occasional adrenaline rush!!
I really can't see him shooting Mary if he thought she stood in the way of his and John's friendship, though!

But that's not selfish, it's childish-- much like his way of revealing himself to John after the hiatus-- very, very childish: it's the kind of thing a teenager would think to do. The funny thing is-- his ploy in the train car actually worked, and was probably the only way he would ever have gotten John to admit that he forgave Sherlock-- because John is a big teenager, too. Those two giggle at crime scenes. They act like teenaged boys who have never quite grown up, and on top of that, Sherlock , poor thing, in some ways acts like well-- kind of a nerdy, badly socialized pre-teen. But, by HLV, he still obiviously cares enough for John that he put John's needs first. Look out, Sherlock might be growing up!

RavenMorganLeigh · February 21, 2014 5:39 am

Zatoichi wrote:
Tinks wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I don;t think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock at all, when you consider that he jumped off a building, and lost his life (his work, his friends, everything that made him happy) to save John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.

And there are glimmers of his selflessness, all over the series. He cures John's limp; when John needs a loan, he takes a case that covers everything (apparently John couldn't always cover bills, etc, )

John and Sherlock have always had each other's backs-- it's never been one-sided at all.

This x 1000
Sherlock isn't a "House" type character who played nice sometimes to get away with doing something bad or to achieve a goal.
Sherlock plays bad to do good - he's not always understanding of social niceties but when it counts he is always a force for good.
I also want to sign this x 1000! <3

Tinks wrote:
I really can't see him shooting Mary if he thought she stood in the way of his and John's friendship, though!
And this is exactly why I will never trust Mary, no matter how nice and sweet and badass and whatever she was laid out to be, no matter what John and Sherlock feel about her and no matter how charitable I try to be about her assassin-past and her actions in CAMs office. She threatened him, she was completely ready to put a bullent between his eyes this time. I am sure she will hunt down everyone who dares to step between her and what she thinks she deserves from life instead of baring any consequences of her past actions. (Prove me wrong, S4, please!) This is a whole different level of being selfish or acting in moral greyscales than we had with other characters in Sherlock, and one I feel I can not be comfortable with.

Mary's selfishness could all too easily turn into a "If I can't have you, no-one will", kind of scenario. She has that sort of ruthless mindset.

The part that chilled me the most was when she's threatening Sherlock in the hospital, and you hear this sing-song voice (reminscent of Moriarty, by the way)

"Sherrrrlock. Sherrrrrlock. You don't tell John."

EeeeeeeeK!

Spooky.

And actually, major kudos to Amanda Abbington for scaring the holy bejeezus out of me!

Wiggins · February 21, 2014 6:17 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Tinks wrote:

This x 1000
Sherlock isn't a "House" type character who played nice sometimes to get away with doing something bad or to achieve a goal.
Sherlock plays bad to do good - he's not always understanding of social niceties but when it counts he is always a force for good.
I also want to sign this x 1000! <3

Tinks wrote:
I really can't see him shooting Mary if he thought she stood in the way of his and John's friendship, though!
And this is exactly why I will never trust Mary, no matter how nice and sweet and badass and whatever she was laid out to be, no matter what John and Sherlock feel about her and no matter how charitable I try to be about her assassin-past and her actions in CAMs office. She threatened him, she was completely ready to put a bullent between his eyes this time. I am sure she will hunt down everyone who dares to step between her and what she thinks she deserves from life instead of baring any consequences of her past actions. (Prove me wrong, S4, please!) This is a whole different level of being selfish or acting in moral greyscales than we had with other characters in Sherlock, and one I feel I can not be comfortable with.
Mary's selfishness could all too easily turn into a "If I can't have you, no-one will", kind of scenario. She has that sort of ruthless mindset.

The part that chilled me the most was when she's threatening Sherlock in the hospital, and you hear this sing-song voice (reminscent of Moriarty, by the way)

"Sherrrrlock. Sherrrrrlock. You don't tell John."

EeeeeeeeK!

Spooky.

And actually, major kudos to Amanda Abbington for scaring the holy bejeezus out of me!

Very true. Darn I really want to like her still but the more I watch HLV the worse it gets.

besleybean · February 21, 2014 6:54 am

It's funny, I'm able to accept her exactly as Sherlock and John do, at the moment...
We'll see how it pans out.

SolarSystem · February 21, 2014 10:40 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Mary's selfishness could all too easily turn into a "If I can't have you, no-one will", kind of scenario. She has that sort of ruthless mindset.

And this could actually mean (and this is not my idea, someone else mentioned this and I find the idea quite interesting ) that Sherlock is aware of this possibility and that's why he seems to be supportive of Mary in 221B, when he and Mary and John sit down to sort things out. Maybe he thinks that showing some understanding for her and offering her his help will prevent her from going into the direction of the scenario you just mentioned, Raven. It keeps her at bay and Sherlock at least has some control over the situation, over Mary.
The question then just would be what he thought about Mary at the end of HLV - after all, he left John with her. Yes, there was no more CAM, but even without CAM Mary stays the same person. Or did Sherlock already know that he wouldn't be away for long when he said his goodbye to John...?

Zatoichi · February 21, 2014 12:33 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Mary's selfishness could all too easily turn into a "If I can't have you, no-one will", kind of scenario. She has that sort of ruthless mindset.
And this could actually mean (and this is not my idea, someone else mentioned this and I find the idea quite interesting ) that Sherlock is aware of this possibility and that's why he seems to be supportive of Mary in 221B, when he and Mary and John sit down to sort things out. Maybe he thinks that showing some understanding for her and offering her his help will prevent her from going into the direction of the scenario you just mentioned, Raven. It keeps her at bay and Sherlock at least has some control over the situation, over Mary.

This is a very interesting and plausible thought! Especially as Mary also carries John´s baby - even if she didn´t turn against John you wouldn´t want her on the run with the infant.

Still I feel his feeling of friendship towards her on the airfield were genuine.. ah, all these mixed messages!!

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 21, 2014 12:43 pm)