BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary saving Sherlock

QuiteExtraordinary · February 14, 2014 9:55 pm

I concluded that from what he does later. If it had been shown directly, we wouldn't have a problem and nothing to discuss.

SolarSystem · February 14, 2014 10:24 pm

Yeah, well, what we see later on doesn't really convince me that Mary didn't want him to die, or that he realised earlier on that she doesn't want him to die. John clearly was the reason for Sherlock to come back from the dead, imo.

Willow · February 14, 2014 10:32 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Yeah, well, what we see later on doesn't really convince me that Mary didn't want him to die, or that he realised earlier on that she doesn't want him to die. John clearly was the reason for Sherlock to come back from the dead, imo.

Indeed; the writer emphasised that point by having Moriarty tell Sherlock that John was in danger from his wife...

Tinks · February 14, 2014 11:56 pm

Willow wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Yeah, well, what we see later on doesn't really convince me that Mary didn't want him to die, or that he realised earlier on that she doesn't want him to die. John clearly was the reason for Sherlock to come back from the dead, imo.

Indeed; the writer emphasised that point by having Moriarty tell Sherlock that John was in danger from his wife...

Yep "that wife of his .....John watson's definitely in danger"
And when he comes back and is able to think it through, Sherlock obviously feels that John will be OK.
I'm not so sure about Sherlock himself, though.

Willow · February 15, 2014 12:06 am

I'm pretty sure that John only has one wife, though he's not even legally married to her; one could construe Moriarty saying 'that wife' to distinguish her from other wives, which, given ACD's vagueness in canon, might well be right, but I doubt that Sherlock construed it in that way.

And I do feel that Solar System's other comment was well-founded; it seems unlikely that Sherlock actually believed that anyone is capable of shooting with such precision, a point which is relevant when one considers the fact that he was bleeding to death at the time. On the whole, the reduced supply of oxygen to the brain in such circumstances doesn't assist the logical process

Willow · February 15, 2014 12:10 am

Tinks wrote:
Willow wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Yeah, well, what we see later on doesn't really convince me that Mary didn't want him to die, or that he realised earlier on that she doesn't want him to die. John clearly was the reason for Sherlock to come back from the dead, imo.

Indeed; the writer emphasised that point by having Moriarty tell Sherlock that John was in danger from his wife...

Yep "that wife of his .....John watson's definitely in danger"
And when he comes back and is able to think it through, Sherlock obviously feels that John will be OK.
I'm not so sure about Sherlock himself, though.

And neither am I; I construct alternatives because I dislike the thought of him being abandoned...

MahnSherlolly03 · February 15, 2014 12:51 am

Gah. I'm starting to not love Mary quite so much. Which sucks because how awesome was she in the first two episodes? Amandaaaaaaa

QuiteExtraordinary · February 15, 2014 9:55 am

If (!) Sherlock was in danger of killing himself and Mary was the only one who noticed it and knew what to do about it, then she would really be a great character. But we don't know.
I feel like rewatching all the episodes looking for "evidence" for and against this, but I don't have the time at the moment. Maybe tomorrow.
So far it's just a thought. Could be total nonsense.

Tinks · February 15, 2014 10:11 am

I honestly don't think he's suicidal, maybe he doesn't place a high value on his own life, but I don't see anything to suggest he'd deliberately end it.
And I know it can be a bit of a downer when a character/personality that you like keeps getting a bashing, Swanpride - I don't know whether this hurts or heals but I honestly don't think it's a personal thing - it's the way she was written in that last episode that has bothered people.
As for Amanda herself, she seems great, and is a fine Actress - my own personal view us that they did her a slight disservice by not showing her the HLV script until later.

Regina Alexandra · February 15, 2014 1:36 pm

I believe the writers saw Mary "saving" Sherlock after she shot him as an act of redemption. They wanted her to retain some sympathetic qualities whilst also delivering a huge plot twist.

lil · February 15, 2014 6:59 pm

This is the you see but you don't observe thing again.
Sherlock says Mary saves him, but that's not what actually happens.
Mary shoots Sherlock, he dies, he comes back because Johns in danger and he needs to work out the case of " that wife of his.."
Sherlock ends up making Mary reveal the truth to John..Sherlock defends Marys actions ..Sherlock writes off his own shooting..and Sherlock protects the shooter from prosecution.
Yes Sherlock sees himself as a dragonslaying knight rescuing the damsels in distress , here he saves Johns marriage and Mary from the consequences of her own actions and from the power Magnusson has over her.
Ultimately it is Sherlock that saves everyone including the country in true St George style by slaying the real dragons here ,Magnusson and his mindsafe.
Mary is not written as a savior ..she is written as a killer.
The sad thing in HLV ironically, is that no one seems to be saving Sherlock.

Last edited by lil (February 15, 2014 7:04 pm)

QuiteExtraordinary · February 15, 2014 7:16 pm

But this is exciting, isn't it? It's like after Reichenbach, only this time we're not looking for the solution to a technical problem but for the character's motivations. I just think people should finally stop complaining about possible plot holes or out of character moments and start to come up with some theories to explain things. There are many things that seem strange, but why? That'll make for some nice discussions. Plus the chance to make a complete fool out of yourself with the wrong theory. That's going to be some fun for the next 20 years or so until the next episodes air.

MahnSherlolly03 · February 15, 2014 7:21 pm

What if we get the right theory? That'd be awesome

I actually got a little taste of that this time around. I saw a picture of Mary with a gun before I saw HLV and thought "What if she threatened Sherlock while he was trying to protect her?". I never in a million years thought it would happen, though. Naturally, I freaked out when it did.

lil · February 15, 2014 7:34 pm

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:
But this is exciting, isn't it? It's like after Reichenbach, only this time we're not looking for the solution to a technical problem but for the character's motivations. I just think people should finally stop complaining about possible plot holes or out of character moments and start to come up with some theories to explain things. There are many things that seem strange, but why? That'll make for some nice discussions. Plus the chance to make a complete fool out of yourself with the wrong theory. That's going to be some fun for the next 20 years or so until the next episodes air.

Yes i agree.
The real cliffhanger and interest left to us is Mary not Moriarty as cleary seen in the convos.
But Mary is a hairless cat, and some peope like them , they don't buy them and then try to stick fluff on them.
John pretends to be normal and like ordinary fluffy cats and have normal ordinary emotions..but in reality he likes extraordinary people..and not dealing with emotions and emotionally driven people.
Non fluffy people .People like Mary and Sherlock.
Mary is a bamf. Case Closed.
The real Q is..Whos bamf was she, and whos is she now.....?

Last edited by lil (February 15, 2014 8:49 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · February 15, 2014 7:35 pm

lil wrote:
This is the you see but you don't observe thing again.
Sherlock says Mary saves him, but that's not what actually happens.
Mary shoots Sherlock, he dies, he comes back because Johns in danger and he needs to work out the case of " that wife of his.."
Sherlock ends up making Mary reveal the truth to John..Sherlock defends Marys actions ..Sherlock writes off his own shooting..and Sherlock protects the shooter from prosecution.
Yes Sherlock sees himself as a dragonslaying knight rescuing the damsels in distress , here he saves Johns marriage and Mary from the consequences of her own actions and from the power Magnusson has over her.
Ultimately it is Sherlock that saves everyone including the country in true St George style by slaying the real dragons here ,Magnusson and his mindsafe.
Mary is not written as a savior ..she is written as a killer.
The sad thing in HLV ironically, is that no one seems to be saving Sherlock.

Exactly right.

Looking at the actual plot, the actual events-- that's not being negative or complaining, this is the show that we watched, and commenting on it -- it's not a personal attack on the characters, or any of the fans, but it is acknowledging what actually happened in the show.

Poor Sherlock-- he gets no love.

besleybean · February 18, 2014 7:20 am

I love him!

Wiggins · February 18, 2014 9:17 am

MahnSherlolly03 wrote:
Gah. I'm starting to not love Mary quite so much. Which sucks because how awesome was she in the first two episodes? Amandaaaaaaa

I know, me too. I've rewatched several times bc the Olympics has killed programming and because its such a wonderful episode.

Each time I try and focus on a new aspect whether a specifics characters motivations or emotions throughout or some line of plot.

When I focused on Mary, I really didnt like what I saw post shooting .

First her reaction to hearing he Survived- smile dropping once her face is hidden from John due to the hug.

Of course the you tell John scene. She doesn't sound desperate when she's saying it to him in the " I can't lose him I love him so sense"

She does sound threatening.

She searches for him on her own while every one is trying to find his hiding spots. With a gun no less. Why would she feel the need to protect herself against him. Until Wiggins hands her a phone she doesn't know he's setting her up.

I tried to think well her life is in danger -!magnussen knowing her enemies... But does she have it in hand going into Leinster? Or just when he tells her to shoot the coin?

In any case the way she speaks to wiggins and sherlock is less than friendly. She's sharp tongued- not in a cheeky way and her tone is edgy in an aggressive manner . Not like stress edgy.

She seems curt instead of contrite.
I can see speaking to sherlock with unease considering he knows all or a lot and she shot him- but she doesn't sound like a woman who is feeling bad for anything.

All those things really hit me when I focused on her and sadly as much as I loved her character (despite worrying about bringing a girlfriend into the equation) I'm now very untrusting of her and upset bc I loved what the three had. She and sherlock were even fantastic together and she and Watson just seemed like a perfect pair( thanks due to the real life relationship I'm sure).

It stinks /:

I loved the episode but I'm just still reeling from the relationship effects.

I'm still not feeling the John hate- he was rather selfish but his world was crashing and I think sherlock was hiding the medical issues well. I thought he looked like someone who had been shot and left hospital against medical advice.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 18, 2014 4:37 pm

Wiggins wrote:
She searches for him on her own while every one is trying to find his hiding spots. With a gun no less. Why would she feel the need to protect herself against him. Until Wiggins hands her a phone she doesn't know he's setting her up.

I tried to think well her life is in danger -!magnussen knowing her enemies... But does she have it in hand going into Leinster? Or just when he tells her to shoot the coin?

Good question - why is she carrying a gun? Why does it look as if she's threatening him? It's all so contradictory. Mary, or actually both Mary and John, seem to be doing everything wrong from that scene on. As a viewer you automatically get mad at them. Mary shot Sherlock. He should hate her, and be scared of her. But he isn't. Absolutely not. That's the strange thing. He even puts John in that chair so it looks as if it's Sherlock. If he had any doubt he wouldn't do that, would he? The only alternative explanation would be that Sherlock has developed so much hate against John that he doesn't care if John dies. But the fact alone that Sherlock woke up in the hospital because he thought of John and Mary disproves that. However, the "she saved my life because she phoned the ambulance" explanation is a very weak one. He would still have been angry with her then. And in the CAM building Sherlock could neither see nor hear what Mary was doing because he was busy dying, and he had no chance to look at his watch either to check how many minutes had passed. So that's more or less nonsense IMO.

Tinks · February 18, 2014 4:51 pm

He doesn't hate John at all - and he made absolutely sure John was in no danger by beaming a huge picture of Mary's face onto the building and reminding her it was there - plus Wiggins knew she'd gone to meet him so she wasn't going to shoot anyone - only threaten to if Sherlock didn't keep quiet.
The coin confuses me - she hit it off centre rather than in the middle which to me says that when she shot Sherlock, she may have been aiming to do more damage but hit him slightly off centre through nerves or something (Unsettled because John was downstairs).
I thought it was Sherlock at his most mature than we've ever seen him - he needed to let John know the truth about Mary, and felt she needed to tell John from her own lips - he's learnt that not being honest with John leaves you in an uncomfortable place.
Then he uses the Baker Street scene, and presumably the months before Christmas, to try to bring them together again.
He's not angry with Mary because he thinks. - wrongly, imo - that she's behaved in a similar way to him.
He hasn't differentiated between his own selfless love, and her selfish love.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 18, 2014 5:09 pm

I may be wrong, but I think being selfless is out of character for Sherlock. Of course he cares about others, and surely he's slowly learning to be less selfish, step by step, but I can't imagine that he could become entirely altruistic all of a sudden.

I definitely have to rewatch everything again. Just thinking about it is only confusing.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (February 18, 2014 5:12 pm)