RavenMorganLeigh:
 
I agree on that „Baskerville drugging of John“ thing. I always thought that „Cofee, I made cofee....“ may be a biiiit of payback on Sherlock′s side. It was certainly not just a „scientific experiment in a controled environment“, Sherlock was enjoing himself very much while doing that.
 
And I would really love to see such fanfiction! I hope you write one. It would be a nice change from the usual „John is ideal, Sherlock′s in the wrong“ fare.
 
Willow:
 
I prefer Lestrade′s reaction to John′s too, I never argued about that. I tend to strongly side with Sherlock in the show, so seeing him with blood-streaked face was very unpleasant for me. I also don′t condone such violence.
 
Still, I can see where John is coming from and why he reacted with such force – I tried to explain that in some of my previous posts.
 
And Lestrade, as depicted in the show, seemed to be a very balanced, stabile, level-headed and warm-hearted kind of person from the very start. Come to think of it, he was never ever offended by Sherlock′s outrageous stunts and by his mockery or sarcasm, he never thought it below himself to ask for Sherlock′s help or to defer to his opinion, he dealt with this in a really professional manner. I don′t doubt he is a very good friend of Sherlock and he is probably much more reliable than John if things go awry. (In his feelings for Sherlock, John is much more passionate than Lestrade, but that fact means John tends to be also much more unhinged and violent when he feels slighted by Sherlock. Strong passions are not exactly a good thing. Quiet, unassuming, tranquil kind of love - Lestrade′s or Molly Hooper′s –  will always look better in comparison).
 
Nevertheless, Lestrade′s „Sherlock is sick“ videos really disturbed me. I was myself hospitalised around the time when HLV was first broadcasted. I had a raging gallblader pain, but after some medication I was generally fine, much better than some other patients. I still can′t imagine I would be OK if somebody made videos of me being in that state. I don′t really think that Sherlock (who was shot and in much worse condition) would be OK with that either, being an arrogant, self-confident and introverted kind of man.
 
Still, I am a woman. Maybe it′s different among men – I can give Lestrade a benefit of the doubt.
 
As to John, I am rather optimistic and I think he will own up to his flaws gradually. His personal growth can make some nice kind of drama in S4. In that infamous confrontation between Mary, John and Sherlock at Baker Street, John was reminded by Sherlock that his life is the result of his own choices. Maybe this is the beginning of  him learning some lessons finally?

I love him, too. And don't forget he was one ofe Sherlocks friends moriarty put a sniper on in TRF.

nakahara wrote:

If you look closely on S1 and S2 of Sherlock, it is clearly visible that John has that „cold streak“ in him and he is sometimes terribly unkind when dealing with Sherlock.
 
For example, take „Hounds of Baskerville“. Even a layman′s eye could see that Sherlock has a complete nervous meltdown by the fireplace (shaking, hyperventilating, blinking rapindly, sweating). He is very obviously drugged or out of his mind. And yet John (who is supposed to be a doctor) speaks to Sherlock in an incredibly condescending manner, even calls him Spock – as if he don′t believe for a moment that Sherlock is able to feel fear or pain as a normal human being. It is ironic, that when Sherlock finally tells him off, it is actually John who feels offended – when he behaved atrociously himself.
 
Or when Irene injected Sherlock with ketamine in SIB. John tended to Sherlock as a friend would but was not overly concerned about his hurt feelings or vulnerability. He even allowed Lestrade to make a nasty video of Sherlock when Sherlock was absolutely out of it, being unconcious or too weak from throwing up, thus unable to give any consent to all this.
 
It was probably not a coincidence either when John called Sherlock „a machine“ in TRF. He apparently sees Sherlock like that -  as a person who is almost invincible and not swayed by emotions like other people, but who is also cold and calculating like a real machine. (Which is actually canon – John Watson calls Sherlock „a calculating machine“ in „Greek Interpreter“, if I remember correctly).
 
In short, John sometimes forgets Sherlock is human too and that he can be hurt like everybody else.
 
Yet all that time he is the same John who acts as Sherlock best and most loyal friend and who heartbreakingly grieves Sherlock when Sherlock is „dead“.
 
So he is not OOC in TEH or in HLV either, he is the same established character we knew before. John is simply just not perfect, he has many flaws and contradictions of character himself. The dissapointment of some fans probably has its roots in „fanfiction′s John“ rather than John we actually see in the show. Fanfictions painted John as an angelicaly kind, patient, loving and ridiculously ideal man while they ascribed every negative trait under the sun to Sherlock. I hated that and I am really glad that John in the show was written as far more complex and conflicted individual. It would be terribly boring if he was alwasy right and could do no wrong.
 
(And no offence to Lestrade, I love him, but he has some terrible tendencies either. Making videos of helpless Sherlock in SIB was disgusting enough, but trying to make such video when Sherlock was mortally wounded in HLV? Hyenistic!)  

This is just a brilliant way to Lay it all out.

I didn't come to the boards until after HLV and was thrown off by all the angst felt by everyone at Johns behavior this season.

I still contend the violent greeting was for comedic purposes partially. It does include the comedic rule of three after all.

I think it also shows the depth of johns pain at losing sherlock and perhaps he wasn't just angry at being lied to and mourning of someone alive for two years- he may have stuck in the grieving process because he was angry at sherlock for dying altogether and for the way he died- jumping voluntarily in front of John. All those factors came out in a shock induced rage.

I also stand by my assumption that I see it a different way because I'm American and it seems all of our programming is far more violent and lewd. I've enjoyed my foray into British programming for a break from that and shows I don't have to wait til the kids are in bed to watch lest they walk in at any moment!

I think we can't forget who John is. A doctor and even so one who was a combat doctor who has seen terrible things.

Both positions teach a person to separate from emotion.

He himself is a machine.

Now I know most doctors can separate work from real life- however war changes people. I assume we have more soldiers going out on multiple tours of duty than England (I have no idea just assuming since we started these campaigns we have more) and since there's such an anti war sentiment here we hear all the negative stories so seeing someone who's been in the combat John has and had to treat ghastly injuries and be surrounded by death- it just seems natural for me to accept his cold side and his violent reactions as part of that and even that they were ins some part always part of his inner workings.

I know people contend we don't see much therapy and his conversation with sholto shows he doesn't go etc but had was written into the show for a reason. In faxt they open the entire show with who we find out to be John at his therapists office. His recording of the sherlock adventures (which is from the books) is even used as therapy.  It is clear they've established we are dealing with someone who is struggling.

And doesn't the oncversarion with Mike (Stamford?) who arranged the living arrangements make mention that John is hard to live with also?

I agree wholeheartedly that his been prickly all along and not same fuzzy and that view must come from fan fics.

One can't get mad at the writers that they fell in love with a non existent character bc they read too much in the off season time that made him what he's not

As an aside, we started doctor who to try and fill the sherlock void. Last night we saw the episode where the tenth doctor dies on the beach by an astronaut.

Minutes later (not years) they see the doctor in a cafe. Amy and rory don't really hug him when he hugs them rory looks confused and angry, Amy upset and them River looks pissed as all get out and slaps him.

And the poor doctor didnt even know why because he  was a younger version:

Just minutes later not years.

So it seems this is in line for Moffats writing of characters dealing with grief that was all for naught.

And for the coldness in medical care for sherlock aside from the already stated ill effects of war, he may just be clinical in that time . Which sherlock would prefer bc emotion gets jn the way of logic as he always says.

They are taught this and as a parent I can relate. I've had experiences and others I'm close to where our children are injured or very ill and while you are panicking somewhere inside your logic takes over and you are cool and calm and focused like never before dealing with the situation.

Once the situation is resolved or your child is in the hands of medical personnel and you no longer are in control of what's happening and aren't needed to help your child you often break down and experience all the fear that was pushed to the back burner so you could focus all at once.

I see the same potential in Johns handling and he's so trained that he may not even feel that rush of emotion once things are resolved because its old hat to him.

Willow wrote:

Nakahara

There is, alas, a flaw in the Great Leap Forward in John growing up; he chose to throw the memory stick in the fire. Grown ups don't stick their heads under the blanket and hope that all the nasty things go away, much as they would like to, they have to grapple with them.

John didn't observe Sherlock in Leinster Gardens or in Baker St; if he had done so he would have realised within a few moments that Sherlock was in dire straits. And having not observed Sherlock he doesn't observe the memory stick either; he doesn't want to know.

It's an incredibly sentimental, and an incredibly stupid, thing to do; he has acquired numerous enemies along with his (fake) wife, but he doesn't want to know who those enemies are. This is not a guy Mycroft would want anywhere near his brother...

Yes, he has those „ostrich“ tendencies, I give you that. Similarly, he didn′t want to know how Sherlock saved himself at St Bart′s.
 
Still, I don′t see this show having „Sherlock and Mycroft“ as the main characters from now on. I think the main characters will remain „Sherlock and John“ like before. I am therefore convinced the writers have some other plans for John then reducing him to „too dumb to live“ pain in the ass for Sherlock.
 
But of course, that′s just me. I can err.
 

On John growing up: 

Well, the first thing he'd have to do is start taking responsibility for his own choices--and I think he's got to learn to quit putting people he cares about on pedestals, and it seems to be contingent on whether they can "turn his life around". John has got to turn his own life around. He needs to be able to count on himself to be able to do that. 

I think he's also got to finally be honest with himself about who he is, and what he wants-- it's fairly obvious that he is ill suited to a house in the 'burbs, a sweet, gentle wife, a boring medical practice; but he tells himself that this is what he wants, and then he's completely floored when he picked "danger", and it's pointed out to him. Maybe if in learning to be honest with himself,  he goes after what he wants-- danger, excitement--in a healthier way, he'll stop getting the trappings of it in a very UNhealthy way. 

Just a-ramblin'. Coffeeeeeeee......

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

On John growing up: 

Well, the first thing he'd have to do is start taking responsibility for his own choices--and I think he's got to learn to quit putting people he cares about on pedestals, and it seems to be contingent on whether they can "turn his life around". John has got to turn his own life around. He needs to be able to count on himself to be able to do that. 

I think he's also got to finally be honest with himself about who he is, and what he wants-- it's fairly obvious that he is ill suited to a house in the 'burbs, a sweet, gentle wife, a boring medical practice; but he tells himself that this is what he wants, and then he's completely floored when he picked "danger", and it's pointed out to him. Maybe if in learning to be honest with himself,  he goes after what he wants-- danger, excitement--in a healthier way, he'll stop getting the trappings of it in a very UNhealthy way. 

Just a-ramblin'. Coffeeeeeeee......

 Amen to that.
Greeks had that nice saying: „gnothi se authon“ („know thyself“). Nothing good can result from deliberate self-deception.

Wheee! Another Phillhellene? :-D  

Actually, there's the core of it; a certain mulish willful blindness. I can picture John with his hands over his ears, going "La, la, la, la, can't hear you, la, la la...", about anything that makes him uncomfortable. The problem is, stuff doesn't go away, just because you don't want to look at it-- and feeling betrayed and angry when it up and slaps you upside the head with reality is Not Good. 

I will never understand for the life of me how John and Mary dated for at least six months, were living together for a good bit of that time it seems, and he NEVER noticed ANYTHING off about her that might make him at least want to go slowly-- learn more about her before proposing???? Nothing? Really? YIKES.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 24, 2014 8:03 pm)

nakahara wrote:

But back to John: because he was suffering from the consequences of TRF at the time he first met Mary, maybe he was just so happy to have somebody around that he didn′t care one bit if she was a bit unusual. I still think John was probably shunned by most people as a person who was publicly known as a flatmate, victim and an accomplice of psychopatic kidnapper of two small children. Mary gave him the feeling of closeness to other human being again.
 
And Mary probably could fool John easily. Even Sherlock overlooked her dangerous traits completely and he is a much keener observer than John.
 

 
Well, John shunned Mrs Hudson, who loved both him and Sherlock, and he certainly wasn't shunned by Lestrade, who we see visiting him in the short film; it was John who decided to leave Baker St. Mrs Hudson didn't even know if John was alive; Moftiss were piling on the extra helpings of irony when they wrote the line about not even one phone call.

I agree, however, that Sherlock was remiss in not following up his reading of Mary, though this is possibly because he'd spent the morning being beaten up by a Serbian torturer and his evening being beaten up by John...

nakahara wrote:

But Mrs. Hudson is an exception - she is the landlady of Baker Street 221B and as we know, John considers it too painful to be around that flat and everything connected with that flat after Sherlock′s suicide (including poor Mrs. Hudson, unfortunately).
 
Lestrade is the exception of the rule, too. He never believed in Sherlock′s guilt, why would he shun John?
 
Yes, no wonder Sherlock was distracted. It′s not easy to deduce something if you are slapped around constantly.
 

Interesting that John really only dropped by 221b  to  make sure that Mrs. Hudson knew (because he was getting married and all) that he wasn't gay. And she still assumed he was with a man, so he had to yell at her. :-) John, John...

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

But Mrs. Hudson is an exception - she is the landlady of Baker Street 221B and as we know, John considers it too painful to be around that flat and everything connected with that flat after Sherlock′s suicide (including poor Mrs. Hudson, unfortunately).
 
Lestrade is the exception of the rule, too. He never believed in Sherlock′s guilt, why would he shun John?
 
Yes, no wonder Sherlock was distracted. It′s not easy to deduce something if you are slapped around constantly.
 

Interesting that John really only dropped by 221b  to  make sure that Mrs. Hudson knew (because he was getting married and all) that he wasn't gay. And she still assumed he was with a man, so he had to yell at her. :-) John, John...

 That′s why I adore Mrs. Hudson. She is The Empress of Johnlock Shippers.
 
Maybe John also wanted to inform her that Sherlock′s name was cleared? Just a thought....
 

He didn't mention it. 

In The Empty House, Watson faints when realizing Holmes is the elderly bookseller standing in front of him.  T.E.Herse's reaction is more realistic.  By the way, Watson fainting was used as evidence that Watson was a woman back in the 1950's