Swanpride wrote:

So...John should have made pictures of Sherlock lying in the hospital? Because that's what Lestrade intended to do....

Oh, he should have! 

I'm another loving Lestrade. I miss him terribly this season. I hope series 4 brings he and Sherlock working together more often.

I think it all the outpouring of love and friendship we've seen in the few scenes he's in.

I too think sherlock is messing with him with the G names. If he can remember Tom he can remember Greg.  I think it's Sherlocks own awkward way of showing he cares.

As to someone saying about John holding a grudge- I think that's quite  right.

While his reaction to Sherlock is violence (which I agree with someone above who says we really shouldn't take it dark and serious and also that it shows how much he cared and hurt) he actually has a verbal reconciliation with Mary we can draw from.

He tells her he forgives her but he's still pissed and its going to come out from time to time.

I think that's what we see with his attitude toward Sherlock this series. He's forgiven him but at times, maybe due to some kind of trigger or just a bad mood or pouty mood, his unresolved resentment comes out.

He's forgiven Sherlock, but he's still pissed and its going to come out sometimes.

Tinks wrote:

It occurred to me again last night when I was posting about the Baker Street scene and how bad I felt for Sherlock during it, that Lestrade is the one person who is unfailingly good to Sherlock.

He's always seen the goodness in him, long before Sherlock started letting it show.
He never shows anger to him - instead he reasons with him as an adult would with a child.
He is the ONLY one, who on Sherlock's return, showed genuine pleasure at seeing him, before any other emotion.
He's a gem of a character and, imo, a slightly undervalued one.

Yes; people do seem to overlook the fact that he's been a constant positive presence, and he was so good in the short film that I was disappointed that he didn't get more screen time in the full length episodes. I do hope that S4 will rectify this; in the meantime I content myself with the thought that he was shown reacting to the Moriarty gif, so there's hope of him being involved in the first big case. 


 

Harobed wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

The scene where Sherlock reveals himself to Lestrade-- The huge hug---that actually ended up becoming the emotional payoff-- that I never got from John. 

And then, Lestrade drops EVERYTHING to run to Sherlock's rescue, at the cost of making a bust he's worked on for months. 

After the stag do-- he gets John and Sherlock out of the drunk tank; he yells at John, not Sherlock. 

My conclusion: Lestrade is becoming a better freind to Sherlock than John. 

Of course, I could just be on crack. What do y'all think? 

 

 SPOT ON!!!
I was SO dissapointed when John did not show his friend any kind of affection...nor show any real relief that he was not dead after all!
Of course I understand his initial anger at not being told of the plot, but methinks he should have gotten over that & showed his true heart...missing his friend & glad that he was alive & well!

That′s true, but don′t forget that Lestrade and John had very different reasons for reacting like they did:
 
Lestrade used Sherlock deductions and other exceptional abilities when investigating various murder cases. He and his colleagues from Metropolitan Police then took all the credit for the succesful solutions of those cases while abusing Sherlock with Donovan′s and Anderson′s vitriolic remarks and hatred. Lestrade did absolutely nothing to stop their treatment of his consultant detective but he was really quick in orchestrating false drug busts if Sherlock refused to help him on his own volition. In TRF finally, after Sherlock hugely contributed to the swift rescue of two kidnapped children, he framed him with abduction and arrested him on very flimsy pretext. Sherlock apparently commited suicide because of all that. And after two years it was revealed that Sherlock was innocent all along...
 
So when Sherlock appears in front of Lestrade, it is understandable that Lestrade hugs him. For Lestrade, this hug signifies an absolution from the immense ocean of guilt that tormented him in Sherlock′s absence.
 
On the other hand, John was incredibly loyal and protective of his friend while gaining absolutely nothing from their connection except some recognition as a blogger. He had to stand by and watch the gruesome sight of his friend leaping from the tall building and smashing his skull on the pavement. He then had to live with the consequences of TRF and to put up with people ridiculing him for being a dumb victim of a fraudulent criminal or accusing him of being his accomplice. Even after all that, he still refused to believe that Sherlock took part in any crime and tried to clear his name on his blog. When Sherlock′s name was cleared, he immediately attended Sherlock′s grave and visited Baker Street, happy that the memory of his friend will now be properly honored.
 
And suddenly Sherlock appears out of nowhere, in ridiculous outfit, cracking jokes about John′s moustache.... For John, this must feel like an awful betrayal of his love, his suffering and his sacrifice, because Sherlock′s behaviour at that moment really gives him reason to think it was all just some sort of sick joke from his side. I don′t approve of any physical violence that followed, but it is hardly surprising John saw red after Sherlock′s stunt. His emotional pain had to be unbearable.  

 

Russell wrote:

nakahara wrote:

That′s true, but don′t forget that Lestrade and John had very different reasons for reacting like they did:
 
 <snip> 

 
Yes. Still agree that it would have been nice for a little more warmth/relief, like the others mentioned, but just wanted to say really liked how you put it!

Part of the problem is that John's reaction doesn't make sense when viewed in the context of the last two seasons--- (I mean, I get the punching and strangling, and head butting, ) but after all that was over-- after Sherlock pulled him out of the bonfire--- distance. 

SolarSystem wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Russell wrote:

 
Yes. Still agree that it would have been nice for a little more warmth/relief, like the others mentioned, but just wanted to say really liked how you put it!

Part of the problem is that John's reaction doesn't make sense when viewed in the context of the last two seasons--- (I mean, I get the punching and strangling, and head butting, ) but after all that was over-- after Sherlock pulled him out of the bonfire--- distance. 

But after Sherlock pulls him out of the bonfire, John comes to see him at 221B and they go off to solve another case together. And after that case - during which Sherlock tricked John into forgiving him by pretending that they would die in like two minutes - John is back with him at 221B to face the press and to ultimately be his partner again. Granted, there's no hugging, but I don't see all that much distance, either.
 

Ah. What I mean is emotional distance. And at the end of HLV, it seemed to take John an awfully long time to decide whether or not to even shake Sherlock's hand. THAT was just weird. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 23, 2014 8:37 pm)

Zatoichi wrote:

Imo he was just totally lost for words or actions at that time.. 

I agree.
And as for TEH, I think it might not be all that easy to emotionally get close again to someone who was 'dead' for two years. But to me John gets closer and closer to Sherlock again both emotionally and in terms of space during TEH, and at the end of the episode they are as close you can get within a few days after the return of a friend you assumed to be dead, imo.
 

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Russell wrote:

 
Yes. Still agree that it would have been nice for a little more warmth/relief, like the others mentioned, but just wanted to say really liked how you put it!

Part of the problem is that John's reaction doesn't make sense when viewed in the context of the last two seasons--- (I mean, I get the punching and strangling, and head butting, ) but after all that was over-- after Sherlock pulled him out of the bonfire--- distance. 

Actually, John was only cold and dismissive of Sherlock that first evening, when he attacked him in righteous anger after that „not dead“ stunt. The shock was too strong for him at that moment and his reaction was adequately agressive.
 
But the very next day, when that old bibliophile attended his ambulance and John thought that the old man was Sherlock in disguise, you could see that he was more amused than angry now. The storm was already over and the sky started to clear gradually.
 
In fact, John tried to visit Baker Street 221B before he was put into the bonfire. I believe, he was already willing to forgive Sherlock. I also don′t think, he acted distant after Sherlock saved him from the fire. He visited Sherlock the day after and he was actually very calm and polite, almost skittish when speaking to him, as if he was ashamed for his previous berserk behaviour. (He also confessed on his blog that Sherlock is like a drug to him – he simply couldn′t stay away.) And consider – in that moment, he found out that Sherlock′s parents knew about Sherlock not being dead all along (so two more people were informed about Sherlock′s charade while he was not). One more reason to punch Sherlock, no? Yet he didn′t hit him now, he just laughed.
 
So, John didn′t warmed up to Sherlock right away but it took him few days to adjust to the new reality of Sherlock being alive. That doesn′t mean that he was not happy to see him. But he needed some time to come to terms with that – which is much more realistic, IMHO.
 
(I am convinced, that John′s strong reaction and violence towards Sherlock that first evening stemed from his hero worship and idealisation of Sherlock while Sherlock was „dead“. It was two years after Sherlock „died“ and John already forgot everything about his flaws, remembering him as some kind of martyred mythical hero. When real Sherlock, who was funny and briliant but at the same time flawed and inconsiderate, appeared again, he kind of cracked that ideal image in John′s head – and paid with his bloodied nose for this. )
 

Interesting points. 

I still think though, that Lestrade showed more happiness that Sherlock was alive than John did, but I do get that he was profoundly hurt; but part of that may also be that he views Sherlock's hiatus as a personal betrayal-- 

He seems to have these thoughts in his head--

Everybody else knew , but him--
Sherlock didn't trust him enough to take John with him--
That Sherlock didn't tell John that he was alive, simply out of cruelty--

And the sad thing is, it doesn't seem that he ever really finds out why things happened the way they did. But his own "hit first, and think later" approach makes me think that Sherlock was probably right in (a) not telling John, (b) not taking him along on the mission. 

What it comes down to is , yes John is terribly wounded, but he can't see his way out of it to consider what Sherlock might have been through, and he's all too willing to believe the worst. 

Lestrade hugged first. And then, didn't hit. 

nakahara wrote:

If you look closely on S1 and S2 of Sherlock, it is clearly visible that John has that „cold streak“ in him and he is sometimes terribly unkind when dealing with Sherlock.
 
For example, take „Hounds of Baskerville“. Even a layman′s eye could see that Sherlock has a complete nervous meltdown by the fireplace (shaking, hyperventilating, blinking rapindly, sweating). He is very obviously drugged or out of his mind. And yet John (who is supposed to be a doctor) speaks to Sherlock in an incredibly condescending manner, even calls him Spock – as if he don′t believe for a moment that Sherlock is able to feel fear or pain as a normal human being. It is ironic, that when Sherlock finally tells him off, it is actually John who feels offended – when he behaved atrociously himself.
 
Or when Irene injected Sherlock with ketamine in SIB. John tended to Sherlock as a friend would but was not overly concerned about his hurt feelings or vulnerability. He even allowed Lestrade to make a nasty video of Sherlock when Sherlock was absolutely out of it, being unconcious or too weak from throwing up, thus unable to give any consent to all this.
 
It was probably not a coincidence either when John called Sherlock „a machine“ in TRF. He apparently sees Sherlock like that -  as a person who is almost invincible and not swayed by emotions like other people, but who is also cold and calculating like a real machine. (Which is actually canon – John Watson calls Sherlock „a calculating machine“ in „Greek Interpreter“, if I remember correctly).
 
In short, John sometimes forgets Sherlock is human too and that he can be hurt like everybody else.
 
Yet all that time he is the same John who acts as Sherlock best and most loyal friend and who heartbreakingly grieves Sherlock when Sherlock is „dead“.
 
So he is not OOC in TEH or in HLV either, he is the same established character we knew before. John is simply just not perfect, he has many flaws and contradictions of character himself. The dissapointment of some fans probably has its roots in „fanfiction′s John“ rather than John we actually see in the show. Fanfictions painted John as an angelicaly kind, patient, loving and ridiculously ideal man while they ascribed every negative trait under the sun to Sherlock. I hated that and I am really glad that John in the show was written as far more complex and conflicted individual. It would be terribly boring if he was alwasy right and could do no wrong.
 
(And no offence to Lestrade, I love him, but he has some terrible tendencies either. Making videos of helpless Sherlock in SIB was disgusting enough, but trying to make such video when Sherlock was mortally wounded in HLV? Hyenistic!)  

Thank you, thank you, thank you---- I no longer feel as if I was on crack. 

The Baskerville thing got to me, too--and I always thought that Sherlock's drugging John (not good, by the way) was a tit-for-tat sort of thing; "THIS is what I was going through, and you didn't beleive me" , kind of action. 

I hear you about Fanfiction John-- and it gets on my last Black, Scots-Irish, Cherokee nerve, too. ;-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 23, 2014 11:55 pm)

Willow wrote:

Nakahara

I do prefer Lestrade's reaction to John's; if you look at the short film which precedes TEH the writers portrayed Lestrade in a very sympathetic light, which is why I think the writers made sure he came across very well in TEH as well. And in fairness the video thing was within the bounds of propriety in context; remember the video that Lestrade had made of Sherlock for John's birthday? It was rather sweet in a guy sort of way; I really don't think Sherlock would have been offended.

Of course, I have never subscribed to the view of John as a martyr; the writers have made sure that it's blindingly obvious why he was not included in the Reichenbach plan. John's problem is that he seems unable to recognise that fact; everyone around him can see that but he doesn't.

Which makes his role in S4 problematical; we have the apparent return of the man who made the plan necessary but John hasn't learned any lessons, which means that he is still going to be excluded from the inner circle. Admittedly a possibly retired assassin (fake) wife isn't going to help either, but the heart of the problem is John's unwillingness to accept responsibility for his own actions; Moftiss set up the contrast in this between Sherlock and him very clearly...

So, looking at John's arc from that standpoint, John may actually be on the way to realizing that he's got to start taking responsibility for his choices; and I think that started with the scene in 221b-- the confrontation between Sherlock, John and Mary in HLV. 

But still, even there, his default seems to be blaming Sherlock, and threatening him with violence. 

(I swear, I'm going to end up writing a fic where Sherlock tells John in now uncertain terms never to hit him again...)