BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Season 3 difference in POV; Sherlock VS John, not a machine, after all

RavenMorganLeigh · February 8, 2014 1:23 am

Ancientsgate prompted me to start this thread, so here it is:

This season is told primarily from Sherlock's POV, not John's.

Sherlock-- has been, well, having difficulty navigating feelings he's blocked himself from for many years, correct? On the other hand, suppose that's not the case? Suppose this is what being inside his head is actually like? There's a lot of confusion, a lot of fear, a lot of love for John-- but an awful lot of hurt there, too-- caused by John, who probably didn't realize that he'd hurt Sherlock at all; after all, John's POV opinion is that "Sherlock's a machine."

I’m going to elaborate on this point: if we only get John’s opinion on Sherlock— well, we get this guy who is quite frankly, quite horrid. John still believes that Sherlock is too self-centered or oblivious to other people to care about protecting anyone but himself; he even says it, in HLV. “He’s Sherlock, who would he protect?”

As messed up as Sherlock is, he just might be in a "give John whatever he needs to be happy", space, and also believing that he can never give John what he needs-- well, there might be the reason he was so quick to "forgive" Mary.

I also keep thinking that there's also an element of forcing John to take responsibility for his choices, and stop blaming everyone else for them, particularly the pull towards dangerous situations and people. The violent tendencies. And, I'm just going to say it-- internalized homophobia. Clarification; how deeply uncomfortable John is with being thought of as Gay. Maybe there’s another reason for why we’ve never seen Harry? Maybe it’s not just her drinking? (Speculating, here)

John (consciously) chooses Mary because she represents what *he's* supposed to want, what he's supposed to *be*. And of course, he chooses another (in his words) psychopath.

He almost *has* to forgive her, if he wants to keep his very carefully crafted facade of "I'm the normal, human one" intact.

But I found it very interesting when CAM referred to Mary and John and Mrs and Mr Psychopath.

So very unhealthy, but very interesting storyline—

Anyway—just musing…..

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 8, 2014 1:45 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · February 9, 2014 8:37 pm

And, I'm just going to say it-- internalized homophobia. Clarification; how deeply uncomfortable John is with being thought of as Gay. Maybe there’s another reason for why we’ve never seen Harry? Maybe it’s not just her drinking? (Speculating, here)

Interesting suggestion about the homophobia...could have implications for John's hostility toward Sherlock and his determination to focus on Mary...he's afraid of what his real feelings toward Sherlock might be.

Let's face it, whenever we have too characters in the media of opposite genders with constant fighting, or this kind of back-and-forth relationship, it's ALWAYS a cover for sexual tension, or something deeper than that, which they're afraid of for one reason or another.

House and Wilson fought all the time and played jokes on each other...and everybody shipped them. They were based on Holmes and Watson to begin with (hence the names).

And then there's the fact that John has had sex with and married a woman so much like Sherlock.

Now, John did reassure Sherlock when they first met that he wouldn't mind if Sherlock had a boyfriend...but that was envisioning that Sherlock was IN a relationship, thus eliminating the possibility of John actually BECOMING Sherlock's boyfriend.
This could have implications for

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 9, 2014 8:38 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · February 9, 2014 8:48 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
And, I'm just going to say it-- internalized homophobia. Clarification; how deeply uncomfortable John is with being thought of as Gay. Maybe there’s another reason for why we’ve never seen Harry? Maybe it’s not just her drinking? (Speculating, here)

Interesting suggestion about the homophobia...could have implications for John's hostility toward Sherlock and his determination to focus on Mary...he's afraid of what his real feelings toward Sherlock might be.

Let's face it, whenever we have too characters in the media of opposite genders with constant fighting, or this kind of back-and-forth relationship, it's ALWAYS a cover for sexual tension, or something deeper than that, which they're afraid of for one reason or another.

House and Wilson fought all the time and played jokes on each other...and everybody shipped them. They were based on Holmes and Watson to begin with (hence the names).

And then there's the fact that John has had sex with and married a woman so much like Sherlock.

Now, John did reassure Sherlock when they first met that he wouldn't mind if Sherlock had a boyfriend...but that was envisioning that Sherlock was IN a relationship, thus eliminating the possibility of John actually BECOMING Sherlock's boyfriend.
This could have implications for

You got my point, exactly! And I was actually a little worried that some might think I was "acusing" John of being hateful-- and that wasn't it at all; a person can be OK with the Gay-- but because of their own sublimated attraction to another of the same sex--be very much NOT OKAY with being percieved as such.

His protests-- well they come off as being a bit more defensive than is necessary, when simply laughing it off would be more effective.

Willow · February 9, 2014 9:45 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Ancientsgate prompted me to start this thread, so here it is:

This season is told primarily from Sherlock's POV, not John's.

Sherlock-- has been, well, having difficulty navigating feelings he's blocked himself from for many years, correct? On the other hand, suppose that's not the case? Suppose this is what being inside his head is actually like? There's a lot of confusion, a lot of fear, a lot of love for John-- but an awful lot of hurt there, too-- caused by John, who probably didn't realize that he'd hurt Sherlock at all; after all, John's POV opinion is that "Sherlock's a machine."

I’m going to elaborate on this point: if we only get John’s opinion on Sherlock— well, we get this guy who is quite frankly, quite horrid. John still believes that Sherlock is too self-centered or oblivious to other people to care about protecting anyone but himself; he even says it, in HLV. “He’s Sherlock, who would he protect?”

As messed up as Sherlock is, he just might be in a "give John whatever he needs to be happy", space, and also believing that he can never give John what he needs-- well, there might be the reason he was so quick to "forgive" Mary.

I also keep thinking that there's also an element of forcing John to take responsibility for his choices, and stop blaming everyone else for them, particularly the pull towards dangerous situations and people. The violent tendencies. And, I'm just going to say it-- internalized homophobia. Clarification; how deeply uncomfortable John is with being thought of as Gay. Maybe there’s another reason for why we’ve never seen Harry? Maybe it’s not just her drinking? (Speculating, here)

John (consciously) chooses Mary because she represents what *he's* supposed to want, what he's supposed to *be*. And of course, he chooses another (in his words) psychopath.

He almost *has* to forgive her, if he wants to keep his very carefully crafted facade of "I'm the normal, human one" intact.

But I found it very interesting when CAM referred to Mary and John and Mrs and Mr Psychopath.

So very unhealthy, but very interesting storyline—

Anyway—just musing…..

OK: we are told that John's sister is gay, and an alcoholic, which may have all sorts of weird ramifications in John's head; he appears to have only one sibling, which may translate to the binary opposition of 'she's the gay one, I'm the straight one'. I can see that John perhaps projects his fears of his own vulnerability to alcoholism onto Sherlock taking drugs; that might explain John going over the top in such a dramatic, and totally illegal, way, beyond the fact that John is bored out of his mind living in suburbia.

People have written quite a lot about Sherlock in some ways regressing in his two years of undercover work, but not as much about John; I don't think that he is a psychopath because he does have a perfectly normal personality for a trauma surgeon. All of the things which are faults in a GP are advantages for a trauma surgeon; John's problem is that he's doing something which he is entirely unsuited to, and marrying someone, anyone, is never going to fix that.

I really don't think it has anything to do with his sexuality; there are gay trauma surgeons, and straight trauma surgeons, and by and large they are happy campers provided they have a decent supply of about to be dead unless someone does something now people to operate on. John would be almost as happy up to his elbows in blood in the operating theatre as he is chasing around risking life and limb with Sherlock; he's an adrenaline junkie who needs his fix. And, perhaps, with the right anaesthetist, equally as happy. Anaesthetists are the clever ones, surgeons not so much

The strange thing is that Sherlock recognises that but Mary apparently doesn't; she too may well be bored out of her mind in suburbia, but even a part time nurse must have realised that the guy she is working for is not cut out for life as a GP. He's so obviously doing something he hates, when he could be happy in the A&E, and yet she apparently entirely overlooks this.

I agree entirely with your point that John needs to grow up and stop blaming people for his own choices; in fairness, life in the Army does in some ways offer an opportunity not to have to grow up, so he's got quite a bit to catch up on. I cannot help but feel that chucking the memory stick in the fire was not a step in the right direction when it comes to growing up, but when I think of that cold, almost sterile atmosphere of his house which we see in the short film, and then at the beginning of HLV, I do feel that perhaps he was desperately trying to persuade himself that the presence of the baby would turn it into a happy home...

SherlocklivesinOH · February 9, 2014 9:50 pm

And then I was bothered by John in the reunion scene in TEH, too. I understand that John had a justifiable reason to be angry at Sherlock for deceiving him over the whole Moriarty gambit and allowing John to think he was dead for two years - while Sherlock did have other people who were in on his plan (therefore, there were people in whom he put more trust than he did in John).

I get that Doyle's Watson's reaction (which is also used in the Brett series) of pure, giddy happiness is not entirely realistic. BUT I would like to have seen SOME sense of that happiness from this John, at receiving the very miracle he had asked for.

Plus, even if we grant that Sherlock's done him a major wrong, I'm not sure it deserved so much physical violence.

Willow · February 9, 2014 10:00 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
And then I was bothered by John in the reunion scene in TEH, too. I understand that John had a justifiable reason to be angry at Sherlock for deceiving him over the whole Moriarty gambit and allowing John to think he was dead for two years - while Sherlock did have other people who were in on his plan (therefore, there were people in whom he put more trust than he did in John).

I get that Doyle's Watson's reaction (which is also used in the Brett series) of pure, giddy happiness is not entirely realistic. BUT I would like to have seen SOME sense of that happiness from this John, at receiving the very miracle he had asked for.

Plus, even if we grant that Sherlock's done him a major wrong, I'm not sure it deserved so much physical violence.

I'm sure it didn't; I think Moftiss got too carried away by the fact that it is funny, and didn't stop to think that it was undermining Canon, all the more so because the gut punch in HLV is not Mary shooting Sherlock. It's John's reactions to Sherlock, and in particular him threatening him with more violence, which is the nastiest bit

SherlocklivesinOH · February 9, 2014 10:32 pm

You know, there was a real potential here for playing John's reaction to the shooting exactly the opposite: bringing John and Sherlock closer.

Now, for two characters who have been fighting or dancing around their true feelings to spill those feelings, or reconcile, or confess their love, when they think one or both of them is about to die, or has almost died, is almost a cliche. I'm thinking of something a little different. Let me see if I can say it without sounding either too nutty or being unclear:

John could have decided, because Sherlock SO nearly died and then came back once, that he could have done it before, too, and therefore he (John) should "believe in Sherlock Holmes" on a much deeper (more mystical?) level, and view the previous survival as a miracle ("He'll always come back to me,") rather than a bad thing, ("He lied to me all those years.")

I know Sherlock's not telling him the HOW of the roof-jump isn't precisely what John was mad about, but if that could have been in some way supernatural too, then John would no longer need to think of it as a deceptive gambit for him to be angry about. This was hinted at at the end of TEH.

And then, if John had had the immediate reaction of wanting to hurt/kill/abandon Mary for trying to hurt Sherlock, Sherlock could talk him out of it (whether because Sherlock sees Mary as potentially useful, or is being forgiving, or for whatever agenda Sherlock has.)

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 10, 2014 2:16 am)

Preceja · February 9, 2014 11:15 pm

I see John's reaction as realistic. Of course, he is glad that Sherlock is alive, but the bigger the sorrow was the bigger the anger is because John thinks that Sherlock just ignored his feelings. He had plenty of possibilities to let him know, he just did not want to and John was nearly the only one who did not know. Miracle happend but it does not mean that John will be immediatelly happy and will forget everything.

I think that in this situation I would do something similar. It is a big relief that the person is alive but it does not mean that it is easy to forget the pain that he caused entirely in vain.

Willow · February 10, 2014 12:01 am

Preceja wrote:
I see John's reaction as realistic. Of course, he is glad that Sherlock is alive, but the bigger the sorrow was the bigger the anger is because John thinks that Sherlock just ignored his feelings. He had plenty of possibilities to let him know, he just did not want to and John was nearly the only one who did not know. Miracle happend but it does not mean that John will be immediatelly happy and will forget everything.

I think that in this situation I would do something similar. It is a big relief that the person is alive but it does not mean that it is easy to forget the pain that he caused entirely in vain.

Well, not entirely in vain. It did, after all, keep John, Lestrade and Mrs Hudson alive; the fact that John doesn't want to know that isn't really Sherlock's fault.

The way in which John behaves demonstrates that Sherlock and Mycroft were right not to trust him; he has problems with self control, and would have given the whole thing away in five minutes if someone had pushed his buttons. That doesn't make him a psychopath but it does make him someone who, even with the best of intentions, could not be discreet to save his life. Literally so, in this case

RavenMorganLeigh · February 10, 2014 12:09 am

So, here's the other question: as per Sherlock's POV-- we're seeing a John who is quick to anger, not good at keeping secrets, controlled by his emotions, and in denial about his own darkness. Sherlock also has John's voice in his head speaking derisive, hurtful, judgmental commentary-- John's opinion of Sherlock. Before season 3-- John corrected Sherlock's calling him a freind-- "colleague."

If you look at how blown away Sherlock was at the notion that John thjought of him as his best freind---it starts making sense that he woulnd't necessarily think that John would take his death so hard. But after Sherlock knows--his behavior towards John becomesalmost mother hennish. He puts John first, all the time.

I think the difference in POV shows us thaty we're looking at two people who didn't really see each other.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 10, 2014 12:11 am)

Tinks · February 10, 2014 5:34 am

The big sadness is that no one told John, once Sherlock was back, that the reason he was kept in the dark about Sherlock's being alive, was because his (John's) life would've been in danger otherwise.
It's something I find really frustrating actually, but I don't suppose it will ever happen now - John will always think that Sherlock just selfishly disregarded his feelings.
Yes, Sherlock badly misjudged the manner of his reappearance; he thought John would simply be delighted to see him ( and here I think it was a case of him imagining himself in John's situation and how he'd have reacted)
But when you watch TRF knowing who knew what and how long it had been planned for, I think it's clear that all of the sadness and emotion Sherlock shows in that episode is because he knows what he's about to put John through.
It almost makes me angry with John that he just reacts with such anger and lack of understanding (but that's probably my personal issue with this idea of TV writers sometimes that's it's perfectly normal for friends to lash out at each other physically to show disapproval.)
Sherlock spent the rest of the season trying to make things up to him and we very nearly ended up exactly where we started - with Sherlock banished from his life again. Only this time John seemed perfectly content to let him go

Willow · February 10, 2014 1:03 pm

Cheer up, Tinks! I'm still hoping for Sherlock's plane to crash land on Mary, with sadly fatal results, and John heroically rescue him from the wreckage

Tinks · February 10, 2014 1:15 pm

Willow wrote:
Cheer up, Tinks! I'm still hoping for Sherlock's plane to crash land on Mary, with sadly fatal results, and John heroically rescue him from the wreckage

Thank you for giving me a laugh! I need one today

Cleanshaven Doctor · February 10, 2014 1:28 pm

Tinks wrote:
Sherlock spent the rest of the season trying to make things up to him and we very nearly ended up exactly where we started - with Sherlock banished from his life again. Only this time John seemed perfectly content to let him go

Yes, that's what struck me, too. John doesn't do anything to make the Farewell easier for Sherlock. He tells him that the game is over. One of the worst things you could say to Sherlock as Sherlock's whole life IS the game. Then he tells him that he and Mary will not name their baby after Sherlock. He could have said "If it's a boy, we will think about it" especially as he knows that it's a girl. There is this moment when Sherlock holds out his hand and John takes his time to accept the hand. It's just so sad to see Sherlock waiting. Everything Sherlock says and does in this scene expresses that he desparately wants to stay a part of John's (and Mary's) life. I do not see any such thing from John.

February 10, 2014 3:01 pm

I think John needs a bit of defending here.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
after all, John's POV opinion is that "Sherlock's a machine.".

He called Sherlock a machine in an emotional outburst. doesnt mean thats how he sees Sherlock, just that he called him names. Nit that unusual in an emotional scene or in a fight. He didnt have the change to say sorry later, there were other things on his mind when Sherlock was standing on the rooftop.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I’m going to elaborate on this point: if we only get John’s opinion on Sherlock— well, we get this guy who is quite frankly, quite horrid. John still believes that Sherlock is too self-centered or oblivious to other people to care about protecting anyone but himself; he even says it, in HLV. “He’s Sherlock, who would he protect?”

I didnt see it like that at all, I think John perfectly understands that Sherlock would protect him but is horrified about this. After all if Sherlock assumes John would want to move in it has to be something pretty bad

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
As messed up as Sherlock is, he just might be in a "give John whatever he needs to be happy", space, and also believing that he can never give John what he needs-- well, there might be the reason he was so quick to "forgive" Mary.

Thats great, helps me to understand why Sherlock would want to forgive Mary.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
how deeply uncomfortable John is with being thought of as Gay. Maybe there’s another reason for why we’ve never seen Harry? Maybe it’s not just her drinking? (Speculating, here)

I dont think so. After all its got to be pretty frustrating if he wants to date woman and everyone thinks he is gay. And in TEH Mrs.Hudson really should know better, thats why he gets angry at her.

Willow wrote:
I agree entirely with your point that John needs to grow up and stop blaming people for his own choices; in fairness, life in the Army does in some ways offer an opportunity not to have to grow up, so he's got quite a bit to catch up on.

Thats a great take on John.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
So, here's the other question: as per Sherlock's POV-- we're seeing a John who is quick to anger, not good at keeping secrets, controlled by his emotions, and in denial about his own darkness. Sherlock also has John's voice in his head speaking derisive, hurtful, judgmental commentary-- John's opinion of Sherlock. Before season 3-- John corrected Sherlock's calling him a freind-- "colleague."

Johns voice in Sherlocks head is calling him out at his own behaviour, being jealous when Molly knows how old that sceleton is, etc, its not ment to be hurtful or judgemtal, its more like teasing. And Sherlock is not hurt by it, he misses it. And John didnt mean to hurt Sherlock by correcting him from friend to colleague in TBB. At that point it wasnt established to the public yet that they work together and ones does simply not bring friends to business meetings.

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
And then I was bothered by John in the reunion scene in TEH, too. I understand that John had a justifiable reason to be angry at Sherlock for deceiving him over the whole Moriarty gambit and allowing John to think he was dead for two years - while Sherlock did have other people who were in on his plan (therefore, there were people in whom he put more trust than he did in John).

I get that Doyle's Watson's reaction (which is also used in the Brett series) of pure, giddy happiness is not entirely realistic. BUT I would like to have seen SOME sense of that happiness from this John, at receiving the very miracle he had asked for.

Plus, even if we grant that Sherlock's done him a major wrong, I'm not sure it deserved so much physical violence.

Or it was there to show how deeply hurt John was

tinks wrote:
Sherlock spent the rest of the season trying to make things up to him and we very nearly ended up exactly where we started - with Sherlock banished from his life again. Only this time John seemed perfectly content to let him go

I dont see that at all. John is not that good at handling emotions. He doenst know what to say and is looking everywhere just not at Sherlock. This is how he handles deep emoitions. think back to the TSOT when he meets majos Sholto and is extremely pleased to see him. He behaves exactly like that, barely looks at the man, looks everywhere else instead.

Cleanshaven doctor wrote:
. John doesn't do anything to make the Farewell easier for Sherlock. He tells him that the game is over. One of the worst things you could say to Sherlock as Sherlock's whole life IS the game. Then he tells him that he and Mary will not name their baby after Sherlock. He could have said "If it's a boy, we will think about it" especially as he knows that it's a girl. There is this moment when Sherlock holds out his hand and John takes his time to accept the hand. It's just so sad to see Sherlock waiting. Everything Sherlock says and does in this scene expresses that he desparately wants to stay a part of John's (and Mary's) life. I do not see any such thing from John.

I think the game is over was an attempt to say goodbye. I see the bit about the baby name as trying to joke, and John is having a hard time to to say goodbye, Taking that hand makes it real.

I did have a bit of trouble with the quotes, apolgies if I messed them up.

Tinks · February 10, 2014 4:02 pm

@1895 - I agree with you about John's calling Sherlock a machine being just an emotional outburst - I can completely forgive him that because he thought Sherlock wasn't bothered about Mrs Hudson; it did highlight that John is quite slow to figure things out though, but as soon as he saw she was OK he went racing back to the Hospital because he guessed Sherlock had wanted him out of the way.
I like your take on the goodbye scene and about John trying to hold back his emotions, but I have two problems with this:
Firstly, MF is a great actor when it comes to letting you know exactly what his character is feeling - if he's saying one thing but meaning another, you absolutely feel it because of his facial expression or his voice, whatever, it's something he's always been good at,
And I didn't feel any underlying emotion like that in this scene. Sure, I got that he felt awkward and didn't know how to say goodbye, but I didn't feel there was any great sadness there.
And secondly, even when the plane is in the air, John and Mary act for all the world like they've just waved someone off on Holiday - why would John still be hiding his sadness then?
For the anger he displayed when Sherlock returned, I can excuse that to some extent, but not the violence and not his not really trying to find out why Sherlock did what he did.
In fact, this goes back to him calling Sherlock a machine; given that there was a reason for Sherlock's apparant selfishness then, it's not too unreasonable to expect John to realise that there might well have been a very good reason for John's being kept in the dark while Sherlock was "playing hide and seek".

February 10, 2014 4:32 pm

Mycroft was still around, and I´m sure John really wouldnt want to break down in front of him. And then of ourse Sherlock is already on his way back.

I think part of the problem is that suddenly Sherlock is much more emotional and John comes across as colder, but he is not acting that different than before. When Sherlock apologised to him in HoB John just went on walking and didnt want to get emotional either.

I read somewhere in some interview that there was a scene Sherlock explaining to John why he did not tell him but it was cut. Sorry, I dont have a link.
The violence was the first emotional outburst, but after the first shock he forgives Sherlock pretty quickly, he doesnt hesistate to follow Sherlock when he goes after the bomber.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 10, 2014 9:16 pm

The thing is-- do we think that Sherlock's more emotional, because we are seeing things from his POV? Because when we got everything through the John filter, Sherlock was basically a mean Vulcan. :-)

Tinks · February 10, 2014 9:32 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
The thing is-- do we think that Sherlock's more emotional, because we are seeing things from his POV? Because when we got everything through the John filter, Sherlock was basically a mean Vulcan. :-)

I think when it was shown from John's side, there were many times when we could still see things in Sherlock that he couldn't.
There were many times when John took Sherlock at face value but, by a look in his eyes or an urgency in his actions, Sherlock showed that a lot of his emotionless front is an act, a coat of armour.

Willow · February 10, 2014 9:57 pm

Tinks wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
The thing is-- do we think that Sherlock's more emotional, because we are seeing things from his POV? Because when we got everything through the John filter, Sherlock was basically a mean Vulcan. :-)

I think when it was shown from John's side, there were many times when we could still see things in Sherlock that he couldn't.
There were many times when John took Sherlock at face value but, by a look in his eyes or an urgency in his actions, Sherlock showed that a lot of his emotionless front is an act, a coat of armour.

Yes, I agree that John is not a good observer, and to a certain extent he actively avoids looking; I'm not sure how much of this is consciously intentional on his part, or whether he simply isn't good at it. It is a bit odd because doctors are trained to become good observers; obviously some are better than others but it's a skill which can be learned, and has to be developed, if they are going to be any good as doctors.