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January 30, 2014 12:43 am  #1


The great tragedy

For me, perhaps the greatest tragedy of His Last Vow is that it so cruelly shatters the faith Sherlock expressed in his Best Man's speech in the preceding episode:

"[I am] the best friend of the bravest, kindest and wisest human being I have ever had the good fortune of knowing. John, I am a ridiculous man, redeemed only by the warmth and constancy of your friendship....so know this: today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved-- in short, the two people who love you most in all this world. And I know I speak for Mary as well, when I say we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that."

Sherlock's lifetime ahead proved not to be very long; he had to come back from flatlining to try to protect John.

Mary, on the other hand, let down John rather greatly by shooting the man who loved John most in all this world.

He thought he was speaking for Mary, but he wasn't. And all his faith was misplaced, and I find that immensely sad   

 

January 30, 2014 1:27 am  #2


Re: The great tragedy

Willow wrote:

For me, perhaps the greatest tragedy of His Last Vow is that it so cruelly shatters the faith Sherlock expressed in his Best Man's speech in the preceding episode:

"[I am] the best friend of the bravest, kindest and wisest human being I have ever had the good fortune of knowing. John, I am a ridiculous man, redeemed only by the warmth and constancy of your friendship....so know this: today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved-- in short, the two people who love you most in all this world. And I know I speak for Mary as well, when I say we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that."

Sherlock's lifetime ahead proved not to be very long; he had to come back from flatlining to try to protect John.

Mary, on the other hand, let down John rather greatly by shooting the man who loved John most in all this world.

He thought he was speaking for Mary, but he wasn't. And all his faith was misplaced, and I find that immensely sad   

Not only did Mary let John down by shooting Sherlock she let him down by lying to him every single day since he met her.

 

 

January 30, 2014 11:00 am  #3


Re: The great tragedy

Well, yes, tragedy seems to be the right word to describe this. Sherlock obviously spoke for Mary in good faith, not anticipating who or what she would turn out to be. And as far as I remember she didn't even flinch when Sherlock said that (which might have to do with the fact that AA didn't know what would happen in HLV, so she played Mary in a very straightforward way - which definitely is fine).
Sherlock didn't know, and that's also part of the tragedy. He missed the most important thing about her.

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 30, 2014 11:01 am)


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January 30, 2014 11:18 am  #4


Re: The great tragedy

Oddly, Sherlock didn't seem to feel so betrayed. He forgave her rather quickly. It's as if he gets her. 

Maybe they bonded over faking their own death, which undoubtably, Mary must have done too. 

 

January 30, 2014 11:39 am  #5


Re: The great tragedy

Well, he said he noticed something could be different that moment she could read that code on her phone.


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January 30, 2014 2:49 pm  #6


Re: The great tragedy

silverblaze wrote:

Oddly, Sherlock didn't seem to feel so betrayed. He forgave her rather quickly. It's as if he gets her. 

Maybe they bonded over faking their own death, which undoubtably, Mary must have done too. 

Even if it were true, which I doubt,  it is totally irrelevant to the fact that Mary has let John down, not only by shooting Sherlock but also lying to John from day 1, as LoveBug 54 has pointed out.

And of course, we know that Mary put the boot into Sherlock at their first meeting about how his death had almost destroyed John:

MARY: Oh my God, oh my God. Do you have any idea what you’ve done to him?

and yet she was prepared to kill Sherlock, knowing very well what it would do to John. I think that certainly comes under the heading of 'letting John down'.

Which brings us back to the great tragedy...
 

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January 30, 2014 3:09 pm  #7


Re: The great tragedy

I'm not denying the tragedy, I'm complicating it. It's tragic, it's betrayal but it's not that simple. 

She lied, she took a new identity and built a new life. Her love for John seemed real though.

She liked Sherlock, she could have killed him but didn't. Yet she took a great risk with his life. Why? I think to protect the baby. She could perhaps have taken a less lethal option but didn't. Maybe her killer instincts got in the way. 

Sherlock somehow gets her, she somehow gets him. After she shot him and he trapped her they seemed closer than ever. To me it strangely makes sense, maybe just because of the way Amanda convinced me she isn't evil. 

It's... complicated. 

 

January 30, 2014 3:33 pm  #8


Re: The great tragedy

Silverblaze - I agree with some of what you said there, but I'm interested in your point about them being closer than ever because I thought Mary continued to be quite cold towards him  after the shooting - in fact they had hardly any dialogue at all (apart from her rather rude "how much do YOU know?") when he was sitting there bleeding to death whilst waiting for John and Mary to sort things out - the only time she showed any warmth to him after she shot him was when he was about to board a plane and leave their lives for good,
It's really interesting to see a different take on this.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

January 30, 2014 3:52 pm  #9


Re: The great tragedy

I meant the scene on the airfield but I can't really tell, maybe I'm just imagining things.

It just makes sense in my head that after what they've gone through they'd end up closer than ever. They bonded before the secret came out, something that doesn't happen to Sherlock a lot. She understood him better than most people. Then after the shooting Sherlock forgave her very quickly and offered help, then he risked his life trying to save their marriage. He knows she could have killed him but didn't and he tells John he can trust her. He seems to understand her somehow. 

Mary, in the meantime owes Sherlock big time and probably feels pretty guilty about injuring him so badly. She's probably relieved that they know at least part of her secret and thankful that Sherlock trapped her in the empty houses. They now share a big secret and he showed her she can trust him. I think this should make her bond to him.  

I could be wrong, maybe the writers have a different take on it, but this seems to me a logical development. 

 

January 30, 2014 7:53 pm  #10


Re: The great tragedy

silverblaze wrote:

I'm not denying the tragedy, I'm complicating it. It's tragic, it's betrayal but it's not that simple. 

She lied, she took a new identity and built a new life. Her love for John seemed real though.

She liked Sherlock, she could have killed him but didn't. Yet she took a great risk with his life. Why? I think to protect the baby. She could perhaps have taken a less lethal option but didn't. Maybe her killer instincts got in the way. 

Sherlock somehow gets her, she somehow gets him. After she shot him and he trapped her they seemed closer than ever. To me it strangely makes sense, maybe just because of the way Amanda convinced me she isn't evil. 

It's... complicated. 

But you are still making it all about what you perceive as the relationship between Mary and Sherlock, and ignoring what she did to John.

Sherlock at least had the excuse that he did not appreciate just how emotionally devastating his apparent death was for John, his absence was because he was doing difficult and dangerous things taking down a world wide criminal network, and when he did realise how much he had hurt John he did everything he could possibly do to try and make things right with John.

Mary knew what Sherlock's apparent death had done to John and yet she was prepared to do it again to John for purely selfish reasons; I am not an expert in the field, but pregnancy does not usually result in the mother-to-be deciding that shooting people is a good idea. Maternal instinct does not normally impel women to kill someone who has just offered to help them. Real love means that you don't deliberately put someone through hell for purely selfish reasons.

What Mary did was to make it impossible for Sherlock to fulfil his first and last vow, and that is profoundly sad.

Amanda is great in the part, and she obviously has wonderful chemistry with Martin; I suspect that the reason the writers didn't let them have the script for HLV until they'd wrapped the first two was because it inevitably would have affected the way they played the parts. Tinks is perfectly correct that the only time she was pleasant post shooting was when she expected never to see Sherlock again, which does undermine the whole 'they bonded' bit.

And if you look at real psychopaths you will see that some of them are exceedingly good actors on a day to day life;  they are very good at deceiving people and very good at simulating emotions. You are not a psychopath, and you are assuming that Mary is a normal person; you are interpreting it in terms of what you would do, rather than what we have evidence for.

And that bit of his Best Man's speech is a retrospective tear jerker; damn Moftiss 



 

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January 30, 2014 9:36 pm  #11


Re: The great tragedy

Sherlock DID fulfil his vow though. I mean, that was the whole theme of the last episode and that in the end, him shooting Magnussen was him fulfiling the vow he made at the end of the wedding.


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January 30, 2014 9:37 pm  #12


Re: The great tragedy

silverblaze wrote:

I meant the scene on the airfield but I can't really tell, maybe I'm just imagining things.

It just makes sense in my head that after what they've gone through they'd end up closer than ever. They bonded before the secret came out, something that doesn't happen to Sherlock a lot. She understood him better than most people. Then after the shooting Sherlock forgave her very quickly and offered help, then he risked his life trying to save their marriage. He knows she could have killed him but didn't and he tells John he can trust her. He seems to understand her somehow. 

Mary, in the meantime owes Sherlock big time and probably feels pretty guilty about injuring him so badly. She's probably relieved that they know at least part of her secret and thankful that Sherlock trapped her in the empty houses. They now share a big secret and he showed her she can trust him. I think this should make her bond to him.  

I could be wrong, maybe the writers have a different take on it, but this seems to me a logical development. 

I like this idea a lot.


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January 30, 2014 10:27 pm  #13


Re: The great tragedy

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Sherlock DID fulfil his vow though. I mean, that was the whole theme of the last episode and that in the end, him shooting Magnussen was him fulfiling the vow he made at the end of the wedding.

Perhaps if you reread what Sherlock actually said it would be clearer:

"[I am] the best friend of the bravest, kindest and wisest human being I have ever had the good fortune of knowing. John, I am a ridiculous man, redeemed only by the warmth and constancy of your friendship....so know this: today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved-- in short, the two people who love you most in all this world. And I know I speak for Mary as well, when I say we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that."

Sherlock did not have a lifetime ahead to prove it; he got shot. By the person he had spoken the vow on behalf of as well as himself. Difficult to see how that vow could be fulfilled, given that the counter party, whom Sherlock had wrongly assumed loved John as much as he did, was a fake who had lied from the very beginning and was happy to put a bullet into him, notwithstanding the fact that she knew how much Sherlock's apparent death had hurt John. It's difficult to see how her actions could possibly fit in with 'not letting John down'; you seem to be overlooking the bit about 'I know I speak for Mary'.

And whilst I do not believe that Sherlock shot CAM as a means of fulfilling his vow, it makes no sense to say that Sherlock will actually achieve his 'not letting John down' over their lifetime since Sherlock is on a plane expecting never to see John again, on what is effectively a suicide mission.

Mofftiss are really good at tugging the heart strings...



 

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January 30, 2014 10:54 pm  #14


Re: The great tragedy

I agree with you that Mary didn't fulfil her part of the vow but the thing is he was speaking for her, when really he shouldn't have. She's the one that let John down in the end.


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January 30, 2014 11:00 pm  #15


Re: The great tragedy

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I agree with you that Mary didn't fulfil her part of the vow but the thing is he was speaking for her, when really he shouldn't have. She's the one that let John down in the end.

Yes, that's the tragic part of it. He really shouldn't have spoken for her, but he really does think that John is an immensely loveable person; it blindsided him...
 

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January 31, 2014 1:42 am  #16


Re: The great tragedy

Looking back I think each episode, even though we have more comedy moments than in other series,  all are tragic in a way and especially for Sherlock
Seems every time he gets sentimental about someone, they let him down , and become examples of Mycrofts sentiment is not an advantage mandate.
Airport scene Sherlock says his brother is always right , maybe he is not just referencing his prediction of death in 6 months..but allowing sentiment to cloud his judgments/deductions.
Hopefully / I think next series Sherlock will learn to balance sentiment and cold logic.

On the point of Mary not shooting/killing Sherlock,she also saved herself.
She couldn't kill him and leave Magnusson alive..because Magnusson needed Sherlock alive.
Mary had not killed Magnusson because she needed the info he had on her, and to know where he got it and who else had it.
Thus Mary can kill neither and remain safe..or has to make Sherlocks death look accidental to Magnusson and hope he still has use for her.

Last edited by lil (January 31, 2014 1:48 am)

 

January 31, 2014 10:41 am  #17


Re: The great tragedy

Willow wrote:

 You are not a psychopath, and you are assuming that Mary is a normal person; you are interpreting it in terms of what you would do, rather than what we have evidence for.
 

That's why we see different things. You see her as a psychopath who does everything for selfish reasons, I just can't see her that way. She's not played like that (obviously, because AA didn't know) but I don't think she's written like that either. 

But we won't really know until next year. Or the year thereafter. 

And about the maternal instincts, I think she shot Sherlock to save her own life and the life of her baby. She should have let him help her, but she was so afraid that her secret might come out that this is what she did. Again, might just be my headcanon. We still don't know. 

But it's getting off topic now. 
Either way it's tragic. 
 

 

January 31, 2014 4:50 pm  #18


Re: The great tragedy

Swanpride wrote:

I wouldn't say that John let Sherlock down.
He followed him into the devil's lair, no question asked.
When Magnusson wanted to snip into his face, he didn't do it immediatly, he mostly did it because Sherlock told him he should allow it. The trust he places in Sherlock in unbelivable (and Sherlock is well aware of it, considering his "previous commander" remark).
John considers Sherlock his best friend and he would do more or less everything for him. I don't believe that he would have ever forgiven Mary if Sherlock hadn't be the one speaking on her behalf. It was Sherlock decision to reward this trust with doing whatever necessary to protect John's happiness, even going so far as commiting a murder and accepting his exile, without even telling John that he was as good as dead. And I don't think that he rued this decision.

 
I am a bit baffled; this thread is about Sherlock's inability to fulfill his vow that he and Mary would never let John down. Perhaps another thread would be a better starting point for your thoughts. 

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February 8, 2014 3:07 am  #19


Re: The great tragedy

Someone said that TSoT "feels like a threesome marriage," and I think in HLV Sherlock really does act like he's married, or at least made a vow, to both of them.

 

February 8, 2014 4:12 pm  #20


Re: The great tragedy

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Someone said that TSoT "feels like a threesome marriage," and I think in HLV Sherlock really does act like he's married, or at least made a vow, to both of them.

I do think this is an instance of the writers being very, very careful in their phraseology; Sherlock explicitly does not make a vow to both of them. He makes a vow on behalf of Mary and himself to John, and therein lies the tragedy...
 

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