BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Question-- Just how long was Sherlock in the hospital?

belis · February 13, 2014 1:31 pm

You really have it for Mary, Willow.

Personally I could see Mary visiting Sherlock in hospital. In my head canon there are no hard feelings between those two and she would have wanted to know what John is up to.

Willow · February 13, 2014 1:48 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Wiggins wrote:
[...] Even if he hadn't just been discharged immediately before Christmas he surely had a few weeks of taking it easy (especially if he didnt take pain killers at home so as to stay sharp and not fall into addiction) so he wouldn't have been up for get togethers- or doing a whole lot for the Smallwood case for that matter.
Maybe we should also consider the fact that Sherlock, Mycroft and the extended family was over there for Christmas. As we learned in TEH, Sherlock doesn't exactly have a loving relationship with his parents (does he ever? *g*). Neither does Mycroft, I'm assuming. Also, the parents seem to be out of the country a lot.

Christmas presented Sherlock with a reason to gather the whole family together to execute the plan he had:
1) Easy access to Mycroft and his laptop
2) A way to easily incapacitate everyone but John to have that meeting with CAM, and have Billy there for the medical monitoring
3) Facilitate John and Mary's reconciliation by having them witness domestic marital bliss

Christmas presented the perfect opportunity, and everything else would have just looked strange. "I'd like to invite you all to visit my parents. You know, just for kicks. Oh, and I'm bringing some random homeless guy too. Also, Mycroft, can you please bring your laptop with all your government secrets?"

It would have to be a huge coincidence if Sherlock being released from the hospital happened to coincide perfectly with Christmas, though of course that's possible. I choose to believe there was at least three to four weeks between his release and Christmas, because he just doesn't look and move like someone who had been lying in a hospital bed for several weeks until very recently. And if the release was a few weeks prior to Christmas, it makes a certain kind of sense that Sherlock would have waited until the holidays to gather everyone for the above mentioned reasons.

Well, he would have been able to move, but that doesn't mean he was fit to leave hospital, particularly since he had already had a catastrophic relapse; his physios would have had him on his feet as soon as possible but there is a very big difference between being capable of movement and fit to be discharged. Physios are very keen on not letting patients lie down, because there are all sorts of unpleasant consequences thereof, and doctors are keen to keep patients free of pain because it otherwise does hamper movement, leading to all sorts of unpleasant consequences. Sherlock is not stupid enough to refuse pain meds on the dubious basis that they may cause him to be addicted; it's really not something an intelligent person does, at least after his doctors have explained to him why pain control is important.

And there is absolutely no reason why CAM would settle for a date well in the future when he doesn't have to; he is, after all, attempting to blackmail Sherlock with the threat of picking up the phone and letting Mary's enemies know her whereabouts, which would result in a rapidly dead Mary, and CAM is not a man accustomed to waiting.

He also knows perfectly well that Sherlock doesn't need Mycroft's briefcase, merely a reasonable facsimile thereof, because he knows that Sherlock would never give him the password on Mycroft's laptop. CAM was setting a trap, but he would never allow Sherlock to dominate him and set the terms; he's not that kind of guy...

Willow · February 13, 2014 2:22 pm

belis wrote:
You really have it for Mary, Willow.

Personally I could see Mary visiting Sherlock in hospital. In my head canon there are no hard feelings between those two and she would have wanted to know what John is up to.

Your head canon is inviolate; I, on the other hand, do not believe that there are no hard feelings between them. Sherlock may possibly have 'forgiven' Mary but I very much doubt that she has forgiven him.

On the other hand I do have it in for John; I have consulted my Med Reg, currently catching some zzzz before she does a recruitment talk at her old school, which is handily situated at the end of the garden, before she heads off back for her night shift, and she informs me that it takes two seconds to determine severe internal bleeding. She even demonstrated it on me; you will be glad to know that my perfusion rate is well within normal limits.

Of course, determining where they are bleeding, and doing something to stop it takes a lot longer, which is why I feel John really has no excuses for failing to invest two seconds of his time in checking out his best friend...

TeeJay · February 13, 2014 2:32 pm

Willow wrote:
Sherlock may possibly have 'forgiven' Mary but I very much doubt that she has forgiven him.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but for what exactly would Mary have to forgive Sherlock? For the fact that he set her up by having John at Leinster Gardens?

Also, you guys are ruining my fanfic!!!!

Last edited by TeeJay (February 13, 2014 2:33 pm)

Zatoichi · February 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Willow wrote:
Of course, determining where they are bleeding, and doing something to stop it takes a lot longer, which is why I feel John really has no excuses for failing to invest two seconds of his time in checking out his best friend...

I never saw it that way, but.. you are right, thinking about it this is really awful..

Tinks · February 13, 2014 4:21 pm

Yeah, John owes Sherlock a massive apology next time!
Sherlock is supposed to be the repressed one but he's actually apologised at various times for his wrongdoings - to both John and Molly - I don't actually ever remember John saying sorry to Sherlock for misjudging him, so it's clearly not something that comes easily to him, well, ok some people are like that.
But ignoring the fact that his best friend was in agony? Telling him to shut up, or he wouldn't need morphine?
Moftiss, take away this imposter and give us back the real John Watson!!

TeeJay · February 13, 2014 4:45 pm

Tinks wrote:
But ignoring the fact that his best friend was in agony? Telling him to shut up, or he wouldn't need morphine?

Uhm, excuse me while I butt in and take a stand for John here. His whole world just fell apart. He only just found out his wife had been lying to him ever since he met her, and she also shot his best friend in the torso in cold blood while he interrupted her threatening to kill Magnussen.

Sherlock, while clearly in discomfort, is putting up a brave facade. He's walking and talking albeit a bit wobbly, but you'd expect that after a gunshot wound and surgery a mere few days previously. John also knows Sherlock is prone to drama queening, so John was easy to ignore the morphine comment. I find it perfectly understandable that John would be too preoccupied with trying to pick the pieces of his shattered world to notice that his friend might have internal bleeding.

Last edited by TeeJay (February 13, 2014 4:46 pm)

Wiggins · February 13, 2014 5:50 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Tinks wrote:
But ignoring the fact that his best friend was in agony? Telling him to shut up, or he wouldn't need morphine?
Uhm, excuse me while I butt in and take a stand for John here. His whole world just fell apart. He only just found out his wife had been lying to him ever since he met her, and she also shot his best friend in the torso in cold blood while he interrupted her threatening to kill Magnussen.

Sherlock, while clearly in discomfort, is putting up a brave facade. He's walking and talking albeit a bit wobbly, but you'd expect that after a gunshot wound and surgery a mere few days previously. John also knows Sherlock is prone to drama queening, so John was easy to ignore the morphine comment. I find it perfectly understandable that John would be too preoccupied with trying to pick the pieces of his shattered world to notice that his friend might have internal bleeding.

To add to johns defense- he looks rather incredulous when sherlock scolds him for being so hard on Mary and says she saved his life.

I think much of his outrage lies in the fact she shot sherlock - to death really, he did die.

Wiggins · February 13, 2014 6:14 pm

Willow wrote:
Tinks wrote:
Teejay, I've watched those first scenes of HLV now, and from the tone of the lines it plays out as if John misses Sherlock but Mary is not encouraging him to spend time with Sherlock as she was before - she's a bit dismissive about him - it's very subtle but it's definitely there, imo.

Personally, I don't see Mary visiting Sherlock - in my head, I think he probably contacted her to invite her to his parents' house once he left hospital; I don't even get why she would've accepted the invite, to be honest, given that John wasn't talking to her - she was sitting alone in the sitting room, and not even mixing with Sherlock and the others.

I agree that it's definitely there, but we do have to accept that in the real world girlfriends and boyfriends may well play nice about existing friendships and then change their attitudes once the wedding is over. We could infer that Mary is behaving normally, in that sense.

On the other hand this is Moftiss so normal seems unlikely.

I suspect that Mary would accept an invitation in order to ingratiate herself with the Holmes (see the scene with Holmes senior) because Mycroft is a very powerful man who could ease her path if he chose. Also, it gave her the opportunity to sit looking pathetic and pregnant, which again is a useful role to play if you are endeavouring to persuade people that you are a sad and tragic figure; Mary is profoundly manipulative, as we have seen, so I really don't rule that one out...

Along the lines of "normal married couples"

If sherlock has suddenly dropped contact with John and isn't spending time with him, which would upset John, Mary's opinions on him would change.

I know I take a lot more crap from people directed at me and forgive but when it involves my husband ill turn on you fast.

So, perhaps Mary not seeming to encourage John to see Sherlock, as someone stated, has less to do with plotting his demise and preemptively breaking johns connection with sherlock to lessen the blow and more to do with just seeing him upset over being neglected by his friend .

Of course it's like a 2 minute time frame at the beginning of the episode without much context.

Also that turns the general assumption that the lack of communication is on the watsons end due to marital bliss and settling in.

I still believe the lack of communication is initiated on Sherlocks end . I do think its part of his "back on drugs" ploy. Especially since as the burst out the door of the drug house he's screaming about being undercover and says "well I'm not NOW!"

And we already know John is bad about keeping up relationships after his talks with mrs Hudson in the wake of Sherlocks death. So if sherlock isn't contacting John he probably isn't making much of an effort himself.

Willow · February 13, 2014 7:15 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Willow wrote:
Sherlock may possibly have 'forgiven' Mary but I very much doubt that she has forgiven him.
Maybe this is a stupid question, but for what exactly would Mary have to forgive Sherlock? For the fact that he set her up by having John at Leinster Gardens?

Also, you guys are ruining my fanfic!!!!

I'm sorry about ruining your fanfic; it was purely unintentional on my part

Yes; he set her up, so that John knew she had lied through her teeth to him, and that she had put a bullet into Sherlock's chest which was likely to kill him, notwithstanding Sherlock's attempt to diagnose himself. Sherlock really isn't qualified to judge whether it's possible to put a bullet into someone's chest as 'surgery'.

Incidentally, John's a doctor, and only one deep in denial would have accepted that nonsense from Sherlock.

And then he forced her into the role of client ie. the supplicant who has to ask him and John whether they will agree to help her. Neither of those events sits well with Mary; she feels that she's the person who gets to make the decisions, and having to take a subordinate role must have really have flicked her ego in much the same way as CAM flicked John's face.

Sherlock probably needs to read more Oscar Wilde:

'Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much'

Willow · February 13, 2014 7:43 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Tinks wrote:
But ignoring the fact that his best friend was in agony? Telling him to shut up, or he wouldn't need morphine?
Uhm, excuse me while I butt in and take a stand for John here. His whole world just fell apart. He only just found out his wife had been lying to him ever since he met her, and she also shot his best friend in the torso in cold blood while he interrupted her threatening to kill Magnussen.

Sherlock, while clearly in discomfort, is putting up a brave facade. He's walking and talking albeit a bit wobbly, but you'd expect that after a gunshot wound and surgery a mere few days previously. John also knows Sherlock is prone to drama queening, so John was easy to ignore the morphine comment. I find it perfectly understandable that John would be too preoccupied with trying to pick the pieces of his shattered world to notice that his friend might have internal bleeding.

I'm sorry, but life falling apart at the seams is not an acceptable excuse for a doctor failing to notice that someone is bleeding to death in front of him, and even if it were, which it is not, threatening to murder the person bleeding to death is not acceptable either.

John can hardly claim sympathy because his (fake) wife shot his best friend when he himself is threatening to murder his best friend; it really doesn't work like that. It's not as if you need sophisticated medical technology to detect that someone is bleeding out; it takes a few seconds. John was too busy bewailing how unfair his life was to take those few seconds, which leads me to believe that someone has kidnapped the real Dr John Watson and substituted a doppelgänger to confuse us all. I'm hoping that Sherlock will detect this dastardly plot and rescue his trusty friend and comrade in time for the next season

TeeJay · February 13, 2014 7:58 pm

Willow wrote:
I'm sorry about ruining your fanfic; it was purely unintentional on my part

It's fine, don't worry about it. It's good to discuss it, because it gives me a whole new point of view. I might actually rewrite my fic a little after all this discussion. Besides, who says my head canon has to concur with everyone else's? I can still write what I have in mind, even if most people may disagree.

Let me ponder all this for a little while, I'm not even sure where the fic is going yet, so I'm loving all the theories and opinions.

And on the topic of John assessing Sherlock for internal bleeding, well, I'm still not sure it was really all that obvious. He's a GP, not a trauma specialist and rarely sees trauma patients now. His A&E rotation was probably decades ago. On the other hand, we know he was an army doctor, and he will have dealt with lots of trauma and internal injuries in Afghanistan. So, yes, he should know the signs. But were they really so obvious that he would have seen them through all the confusion and anger? Even if it was a bit of a stretch, I'm willing to forgive Mofftiss that particular hiccup.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 13, 2014 8:21 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Willow wrote:
I'm sorry about ruining your fanfic; it was purely unintentional on my part
It's fine, don't worry about it. It's good to discuss it, because it gives me a whole new point of view. I might actually rewrite my fic a little after all this discussion. Besides, who says my head canon has to concur with everyone else's? I can still write what I have in mind, even if most people may disagree.

Let me ponder all this for a little while, I'm not even sure where the fic is going yet, so I'm loving all the theories and opinions.

And on the topic of John assessing Sherlock for internal bleeding, well, I'm still not sure it was really all that obvious. He's a GP, not a trauma specialist and rarely sees trauma patients now. His A&E rotation was probably decades ago. On the other hand, we know he was an army doctor, and he will have dealt with lots of trauma and internal injuries in Afghanistan. So, yes, he should know the signs. But were they really so obvious that he would have seen them through all the confusion and anger? Even if it was a bit of a stretch, I'm willing to forgive Mofftiss that particular hiccup.

I'm doing a lot of writing these days, and I've found that acknowledging John's (and all the other characters) faults actually makes for a better story-- now I have to flesh out character motivations. John can be: willyfully blind, callous, violent, quick to anger, quick to jump to conclusions, and is often pretty rigid in his views of who people are, and when they change, or show another side of their personalities, he gets totally thrown. He's often blind to his own faults, as well. He's very good at living in denial. As I see it, the author's job is to take all of that, and figure out *why* is he like that, and how he interacts with the other characters because he's like that, show ways he overcomes those issues (or not) --- it makes for a fully developed character instead of a one-dimensional one, and thus makes for a better story.

NONE of the characters in the show are "perfect", or blameless, so owning John's dysfunctional behavior is a tougher, but more honest approach. It doesn';t negate loving the character., though! :-)

belis · February 13, 2014 8:24 pm

TeeJay wrote:
And on the topic of John assessing Sherlock for internal bleeding, well, I'm still not sure it was really all that obvious. He's a GP, not a trauma specialist and rarely sees trauma patients now. His A&E rotation was probably decades ago. On the other hand, we know he was an army doctor, and he will have dealt with lots of trauma and internal injuries in Afghanistan. So, yes, he should know the signs. But were they really so obvious that he would have seen them through all the confusion and anger? Even if it was a bit of a stretch, I'm willing to forgive Mofftiss that particular hiccup.

I don't think it was that obvious. I think that if John focused on observing he would have no difficulty in realising that something was amiss. If he got to the point of actualy examining Sherlock (took his pulse, check his capillary refill etc) then internal bleeding would be on top of his differential diagnosis. It is for every patient who just had major surgery and you don't need to be a trauma surgeon to know that. The thing is that John wasn't really looking as he was preoccupied with the argument and his life going to pieces.

Personally I think it's quite realistic. Things get missed everyday when people get distracted and it's for lesser reasons than finding out that your wife is an assasin. Doctors aren't robots and we make mistakes.

besleybean · February 13, 2014 8:49 pm

We saw him doing it.

Willow · February 13, 2014 8:54 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Willow wrote:
I'm sorry about ruining your fanfic; it was purely unintentional on my part
It's fine, don't worry about it. It's good to discuss it, because it gives me a whole new point of view. I might actually rewrite my fic a little after all this discussion. Besides, who says my head canon has to concur with everyone else's? I can still write what I have in mind, even if most people may disagree.

Let me ponder all this for a little while, I'm not even sure where the fic is going yet, so I'm loving all the theories and opinions.

And on the topic of John assessing Sherlock for internal bleeding, well, I'm still not sure it was really all that obvious. He's a GP, not a trauma specialist and rarely sees trauma patients now. His A&E rotation was probably decades ago. On the other hand, we know he was an army doctor, and he will have dealt with lots of trauma and internal injuries in Afghanistan. So, yes, he should know the signs. But were they really so obvious that he would have seen them through all the confusion and anger? Even if it was a bit of a stretch, I'm willing to forgive Mofftiss that particular hiccup.

Well, threatening to kill someone does, in my view, rather go beyond what one would expect of any doctor, or at least any doctor who isn't a homicidal maniac. And yes, the signs were blindingly obvious to anyone who observed, and the diagnosis could be confirmed within a few seconds. Doctors are taught to observe; it's drummed into them through medical school, and up through all of the further qualifications, and through the years spent working with patients day in and day out. There is a very big difference between seeing and observing; the passive and the active.

For example, a typical way of educating young doctors, or baby doctors as they are more usually referred to, is by sticking them at the foot of a patients bed and asking them what they observe. The exams include sticking them at the foot of a patients bed and asking them what they observe. You are expected to have a handle on probable problems based on what you observe before you even examine the patient, just as you are expected to actively listen to the patient, and not simply hear them. The patient may be unconscious, and thus incapable of talking, but you still listen very carefully because what you hear may well tell you what is wrong with them, and that's before you even break out the stethoscope.

John didn't observe and he didn't listen because he was throwing a self-pity party, and then he went beyond it to threaten Sherlock's life. I'm fairly sure that Moffat realises that this is not good medical practise, and if he wants me to accept a homicidal Dr Watson who has forgotten everything he was ever taught he's going to have to work a great deal harder than he's done so far.

Of course, this gives considerable scope for fanfic; Dr Watson's shock and horror at finding Sherlock in a drug den seems to me to be fertile ground for 'methinks the gentleman doth protest too much'. After all, John's behaviour makes much more sense if he's the addict; crack would be a good place to start

RavenMorganLeigh · February 13, 2014 9:00 pm

Willow wrote:
TeeJay wrote:
Willow wrote:
I'm sorry about ruining your fanfic; it was purely unintentional on my part
It's fine, don't worry about it. It's good to discuss it, because it gives me a whole new point of view. I might actually rewrite my fic a little after all this discussion. Besides, who says my head canon has to concur with everyone else's? I can still write what I have in mind, even if most people may disagree.

Let me ponder all this for a little while, I'm not even sure where the fic is going yet, so I'm loving all the theories and opinions.

And on the topic of John assessing Sherlock for internal bleeding, well, I'm still not sure it was really all that obvious. He's a GP, not a trauma specialist and rarely sees trauma patients now. His A&E rotation was probably decades ago. On the other hand, we know he was an army doctor, and he will have dealt with lots of trauma and internal injuries in Afghanistan. So, yes, he should know the signs. But were they really so obvious that he would have seen them through all the confusion and anger? Even if it was a bit of a stretch, I'm willing to forgive Mofftiss that particular hiccup.
Well, threatening to kill someone does, in my view, rather go beyond what one would expect of any doctor, or at least any doctor who isn't a homicidal maniac. And yes, the signs were blindingly obvious to anyone who observed, and the diagnosis could be confirmed within a few seconds. Doctors are taught to observe; it's drummed into them through medical school, and up through all of the further qualifications, and through the years spent working with patients day in and day out. There is a very big difference between seeing and observing; the passive and the active.

For example, a typical way of educating young doctors, or baby doctors as they are more usually referred to, is by sticking them at the foot of a patients bed and asking them what they observe. The exams include sticking them at the foot of a patients bed and asking them what they observe. You are expected to have a handle on probable problems based on what you observe before you even examine the patient, just as you are expected to actively listen to the patient, and not simply hear them. The patient may be unconscious, and thus incapable of talking, but you still listen very carefully because what you hear may well tell you what is wrong with them, and that's before you even break out the stethoscope.

John didn't observe and he didn't listen because he was throwing a self-pity party, and then he went beyond it to threaten Sherlock's life. I'm fairly sure that Moffat realises that this is not good medical practise, and if he wants me to accept a homicidal Dr Watson who has forgotten everything he was ever taught he's going to have to work a great deal harder than he's done so far.

Of course, this gives considerable scope for fanfic; Dr Watson's shock and horror at finding Sherlock in a drug den seems to me to be fertile ground for 'methinks the gentleman doth protest too much'. After all, John's behaviour makes much more sense if he's the addict; crack would be a good place to start

I hadn't thought of that; excellent point!

TeeJay · February 13, 2014 9:10 pm

Willow wrote:
John didn't observe and he didn't listen because he was throwing a self-pity party, and then he went beyond it to threaten Sherlock's life. I'm fairly sure that Moffat realises that this is not good medical practise, and if he wants me to accept a homicidal Dr Watson who has forgotten everything he was ever taught he's going to have to work a great deal harder than he's done so far.

I still think you're being too hard to John. No one's a doctor a 100% of the time. Yes, a doctor may be more observant of people's well-being even in their private life, but you're asking John to use his medical acuity all the time, 24/7, 365 days a year.

I don't know about you, but I usually leave my job in the office. When I'm home, I'm home. I don't generally think about work when I'm not there. Granted, I don't work in a field where lives immediately depend on what I do, but I think we need to cut John some slack and allow him to push his medical training into the background a little bit in lieu of his personal situation that might have clouded any rational judgment, no matter how many times it may have been instilled during his training.

It kinds sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on this one, cause we're starting to go in circles. I'm perfectly happy to accept that John missed out on Sherlock's predicament in this particular scene.

Last edited by TeeJay (February 13, 2014 9:11 pm)

Tinks · February 13, 2014 10:28 pm

It is a case of having to agree to disagree, I know.
But I'm not even coming from the stance that John should've seen what was wrong, because he's a Doctor.
I'm not a Doctor, but I could tell by the slowness of his movement, his speech, his face, the fact that he was grimacing with pain, that there was something very wrong.
When you're in a situation where you're very upset, yes of course you become focused on your own pain, but if someone else shows any sign of illness or distress, natural instinct pushes your own problem aside, just for a minute, to deal with that person's situation.
And I can't find an excuse for the awful way John spoke to Sherlock, or for the fact that they both let him struggle up the stairs behind them.
I know it was only TV, but it left a mark on John's character, imo.
Anyway, apologies if I've posted too much on this - it's an issue which people either see one way or another I suppose, but at least it's got us talking!

Last edited by Tinks (February 13, 2014 10:29 pm)

clareiow · February 13, 2014 10:36 pm

I must admit the Baker St scene really gets me. Sherlock never looks more alone. John comes up first in a huff, Mary follows, Sherlock is last, grabbing at the bannister just to climb the stairs.

Then, as he's talking, he's getting out of breath, he goes a pallid grey colour, his eyes are blinking slower and slower, his mouth slows and he starts slurring. He's clearly in more and more trouble, and what gets me is that neither John nor Mary react. Look at their faces when Sherlock starts to collapse. Mary doesn't even flinch. Sure, she goes to grab him, but she's not got a look of worry on her face. And neither has john. Sherlock is groaning and crying out in pain, and john doesn't even look concerned.

I just felt so bad for Sherlock. So bad and so sad.