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January 20, 2014 5:58 am  #1


I hope I'm wrong about this...

In his explanation to Anderson of How He Staged It, he mentions that he used as a corpse a lookalike of himself who was used by Moriarty as part of the frame-up plot. He felt it was inevitable that this guy would be eliminated when he had outlived his usefulness.

Now, I REALLY hope not, but isn't there theoretically a possibiltiy that Sherlock himself bumped off the lookalike, just from the way he talked about it? And in the best-case scenario, he may have had good information that a murder was going to happen and LET it happen.

Moriarty using a Sherlock look-alike does make sense, however, for Moriarty's plan.

 

January 20, 2014 12:59 pm  #2


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

The way he talked about it, I was thinking in the back of my head "I hope you didn't kill thid guy just so you could kill yourself". I dunno, I think it's possible, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he knew about the murder and didn't stop it.


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January 20, 2014 4:31 pm  #3


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Don't worry - Tom's still alive, isn't he?http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


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January 20, 2014 4:38 pm  #4


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

As this was a Mycroft led operation and Sherlock was just the bait I wouldn't ask to many questions.....'just look frightened, and scuttle.'

Last edited by dartmoordoggers (January 20, 2014 4:39 pm)

 

January 20, 2014 4:51 pm  #5


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I'm pretty sure Sherlock was lying outrageously throuhout his "explanation" of the hoax.  His claim that he used a body which "looked a lot like me" was a prime example.  The body was only used for a few seconds to fool John while Sherlock stood twenty feet away to allow a little blood to be smeared on his face.

Why bother with a body?  Why didn't Sherlock just lay down, play dead, and allow his support team to quickly smear the blood on him? That would have been much quicker than throwing a body out the window and then hauling it away again.

And it seems pretty odd that Sherlock used this alledge dead body for his hoax but never bothered to find out the man's identity!  Sherlock's statement --  " . . . that man, whoever he was . . . "  -- clearly indicates that Sherlock didn't seem to know or care who the man was.

Sorry, but that certainly doesn't sound much like Sherlock Holmes.

I'm certain that the whole purpose of Sherlock's extremely flawed "explanation" was just a bit of clever pay-back to Anderson, one of the two people who had supported the idea that Sherlock was a fake and a fraud.


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January 20, 2014 5:03 pm  #6


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Bruce Cook wrote:

I'm pretty sure Sherlock was lying outrageously throuhout his "explanation" of the hoax.  His claim that he used a body which "looked a lot like me" was a prime example.  The body was only used for a few seconds to fool John while Sherlock stood twenty feet away to allow a little blood to be smeared on his face.

Why bother with a body?  Why didn't Sherlock just lay down, play dead, and allow his support team to quickly smear the blood on him? That would have been much quicker than throwing a body out the window and then hauling it away again.

And it seems pretty odd that Sherlock used this alledge dead body for his hoax but never bothered to find out the man's identity!  Sherlock's statement --  " . . . that man, whoever he was . . . "  -- clearly indicates that Sherlock didn't seem to know or care who the man was.

Sorry, but that certainly doesn't sound much like Sherlock Holmes.

I'm certain that the whole purpose of Sherlock's extremely flawed "explanation" was just a bit of clever pay-back to Anderson, one of the two people who had supported the idea that Sherlock was a fake and a fraud.

I would imagine the body was needed for some of the other planned falls. For example if Moriarty had lived and Sherlock had jumped when he asked Moriarty for some time. Gatiss explained that one of the solutions was for Sherlock to land on a platform and a body would have been thrown from the platform. This was referred to in the newspaper headline from ASiB.
In addition when Sherlock talks about finding the body or any of the other mechanics of the operation I assumed Mycroft got the security services to supply all the backup required.
 

 

January 20, 2014 7:34 pm  #7


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I would imagine the body was needed for some of the other planned falls. For example if Moriarty had lived and Sherlock had jumped when he asked Moriarty for some time. Gatiss explained that one of the solutions was for Sherlock to land on a platform and a body would have been thrown from the platform. This was referred to in the newspaper headline from ASiB.
In addition when Sherlock talks about finding the body or any of the other mechanics of the operation I assumed Mycroft got the security services to supply all the backup required.

Land on a plateform?  Assuming the plateform was sufficiently padded, where did this plateform come from in the brief time they had between the approach of John's cab from the left end of the brick building (from Sherlock's point of view) to the time it was needed to catch Sherlock.

How was it taken away quickly enough to prevent John from seeing it in time between the moment he saw Sherlock laying on the sidewalk and the moment he arrived at his side after recovering from the being knocked down.  It's 30 seconds exactly. I timed it.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock7.png


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock8.jpg


The story Sherlock told Anderson claims that the body was placed on the ground immediately after Sherlock landed in the airbag and the airbag had been taken away.  But the time between Sherlock jumping and John first seeing him on the ground is only 17 seconds!

Are we really supposed to believe that Sherlock landed on the airbag, the bag was moved, the body was thrown from the window after the bag was out of the way, and the blood was placed on the ground around the head -- in just 17 seconds?

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock16.jpg


Sorry, I don't buy it.  I'm sticking my fireman's net theory and no body thrown from a window.  Seventeen seconds is enough time for Sherlock to roll off the net, lay on the ground, and have blood poured around him while the ground crew puts the net back into the laundry truck through the wire mesh door at the rear.


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 20, 2014 7:57 pm  #8


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Bruce Cook wrote:

I would imagine the body was needed for some of the other planned falls. For example if Moriarty had lived and Sherlock had jumped when he asked Moriarty for some time. Gatiss explained that one of the solutions was for Sherlock to land on a platform and a body would have been thrown from the platform. This was referred to in the newspaper headline from ASiB.
In addition when Sherlock talks about finding the body or any of the other mechanics of the operation I assumed Mycroft got the security services to supply all the backup required.

Land on a plateform?  Assuming the plateform was sufficiently padded, where did this plateform come from in the brief time they had between the approach of John's cab from the left end of the brick building (from Sherlock's point of view) to the time it was needed to catch Sherlock.

How was it taken away quickly enough to prevent John from seeing it in time between the moment he saw Sherlock laying on the sidewalk and the moment he arrived at his side after recovering from the being knocked down.  It's 30 seconds exactly. I timed it.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock7.png


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock8.jpg


The story Sherlock told Anderson claims that the body was placed on the ground immediately after Sherlock landed in the airbag and the airbag had been taken away.  But the time between Sherlock jumping and John first seeing him on the ground is only 17 seconds!

Are we really supposed to believe that Sherlock landed on the airbag, the bag was moved, the body was thrown from the window after the bag was out of the way, and the blood was placed on the ground around the head -- in just 17 seconds?

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb106/Allscifi/Sherlock/Sherlock16.jpg


Sorry, I don't buy it.  I'm sticking my fireman's net theory and no body thrown from a window.  Seventeen seconds is enough time for Sherlock to roll off the net, lay on the ground, and have blood poured around him while the ground crew puts the net back into the laundry truck through the wire mesh door at the rear.

As I have already said, the platform idea was around at the time of ASiB. Hence the newspaper headline about Barts. It was dropped when they decided to use the ambulance station as cover. Thats factual. I'm not trying to tie it in with anyones 'theories'.

 

August 3, 2014 2:16 pm  #9


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I don't think Sherlock would have had the guy killed.  What I imagine (if scenario 3 is true), is just as Sherlock says - he knew Moriarty was likely to have killed the lookalike as soon as the children were found, so the body would be in a mortuary, ready for Molly to use.   It might have been the existence of the lookalike body which led to that particular plan.  If there hadn't been a suitable body, Sherlock could have jumped from a little further along so that John didn't see the landing, but that might not have been as convincing. 

But it's a sad tale.  Makes you wonder what Moriarty did to the presumably innocent guy (the usual threats to his family?) to make him scare the children.  And then for him to be killed.  And then his body to be used (for a good cause, but still).  All without us knowing about his life or really caring about him. 

 

July 12, 2015 8:51 pm  #10


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Bruce Cook wrote:

I'm pretty sure Sherlock was lying outrageously throuhout his "explanation" of the hoax.  His claim that he used a body which "looked a lot like me" was a prime example.  The body was only used for a few seconds to fool John while Sherlock stood twenty feet away to allow a little blood to be smeared on his face.

Why bother with a body?  Why didn't Sherlock just lay down, play dead, and allow his support team to quickly smear the blood on him? That would have been much quicker than throwing a body out the window and then hauling it away again.

And it seems pretty odd that Sherlock used this alledge dead body for his hoax but never bothered to find out the man's identity!  Sherlock's statement --  " . . . that man, whoever he was . . . "  -- clearly indicates that Sherlock didn't seem to know or care who the man was.

Sorry, but that certainly doesn't sound much like Sherlock Holmes.

I'm certain that the whole purpose of Sherlock's extremely flawed "explanation" was just a bit of clever pay-back to Anderson, one of the two people who had supported the idea that Sherlock was a fake and a fraud.

Rewatched this episode and have exactly the same question (but haven't found a clear answer here yet): Why is this body needed??? Why doesn't Sherlock jump off, lay down and everything's being prepared? And, to go a little further, if the body isn't actually needed - why did Sherlock need Molly to get involved???
Or did I miss anything significant?
 


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July 12, 2015 9:23 pm  #11


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I always thought the body is needed to get the right 'sound' of a human body crashing to the ground. I'm not sure however why that body needed to look like Sherlock. Maybe because there was the danger of John getting a glance of the body?


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July 13, 2015 4:21 pm  #12


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I would think Molly is needed to do the paperwork - Sherlock's death certificate, or whatever. That's the easy part, the rest is more difficult:

As for the sound - in order to get the right one, one would have to throw the guy from the roof, or at least one of the upper floors, not just a first-floor window behind the ambulance station.  And if he's thrown from the roof, Sherlock couldn't jump as well, at least not while John is seeing him...

Then there's the little problem of why would Sherlock tell Anderson, of all people, the true story? (According to the commentary, etc, this is supposed to be the correct version). And I don't buy the airbag. Anybody who looked out of a higher-up window in this street would have seen this huge blue thing. Okay, the street was blocked off, but what about the people inside the houses? How were they removed without them ever becoming suspicious?

I suppose one could get them out with a gas leak warning. But wouldn't somebody begin to wonder when they read the headlines of Sherlock's suicide?

 

July 13, 2015 4:31 pm  #13


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Kittyhawk wrote:

I would think Molly is needed to do the paperwork - Sherlock's death certificate, or whatever. That's the easy part, the rest is more difficult:

As for the sound - in order to get the right one, one would have to throw the guy from the roof, or at least one of the upper floors, not just a first-floor window behind the ambulance station.  And if he's thrown from the roof, Sherlock couldn't jump as well, at least not while John is seeing him...

Then there's the little problem of why would Sherlock tell Anderson, of all people, the true story? (According to the commentary, etc, this is supposed to be the correct version). And I don't buy the airbag. Anybody who looked out of a higher-up window in this street would have seen this huge blue thing. Okay, the street was blocked off, but what about the people inside the houses? How were they removed without them ever becoming suspicious?

I suppose one could get them out with a gas leak warning. But wouldn't somebody begin to wonder when they read the headlines of Sherlock's suicide?

 
Well, after having left my post here it also occured to me that Molly was mainly needed for the "paperwork", as you call it, Kittyhawk. She had to prepare and trick everything so that Sherlock is "officially" dead.
But you really say something: What about all the witnesses being IN the houses, their flats, their rooms, their offices??? There's whole St. Barts! And the other buildings around. Hmmm, that really makes hardly any sense ...


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July 13, 2015 8:14 pm  #14


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I always thought John's assassin would have seen the airbag and realised that Sherlock had faked it then bumped John off.


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July 13, 2015 9:08 pm  #15


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I always thought John's assassin would have seen the airbag and realised that Sherlock had faked it then bumped John off.

 Also an important point! The more I think about it the more I draw the conclusion that not only Molly's role is by far minor than Sherlock claims, but that even all the explanations Sherlock reveals during Anderson's interview are very thin ...


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July 13, 2015 9:40 pm  #16


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

SolarSystem wrote:

I always thought the body is needed to get the right 'sound' of a human body crashing to the ground. I'm not sure however why that body needed to look like Sherlock. Maybe because there was the danger of John getting a glance of the body?

I always thought the same as well. John needs to see (and hear) an actual body dropping from the sky and crashing horribly to the ground. That can only be done by a dead body. Then the swap to real Sherlock for when John gets a close-up of his face.

So I figured (as Sherlock says himself) that Molly was needed both to find this dead look-alike, and to do the paperwork on Sherlock's "death".


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July 13, 2015 9:52 pm  #17


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I don't know if they needed to drop a dead body out of a window or not, but I'm pretty sure they needed a dead body to give a death certificate to--and it would have to be one roughly the right size to be Sherlock (so Moriarty's body would definitely not do).


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July 14, 2015 8:39 am  #18


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

Vhanja wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

I always thought the body is needed to get the right 'sound' of a human body crashing to the ground. I'm not sure however why that body needed to look like Sherlock. Maybe because there was the danger of John getting a glance of the body?

I always thought the same as well. John needs to see (and hear) an actual body dropping from the sky and crashing horribly to the ground. That can only be done by a dead body. Then the swap to real Sherlock for when John gets a close-up of his face.

So I figured (as Sherlock says himself) that Molly was needed both to find this dead look-alike, and to do the paperwork on Sherlock's "death".

 
Hm, I can't believe that John really NEEDED to hear the body crash to the ground. If you see your best friend falling from the top of a roof obviously to commit suicide, you'll forget everything else and are so deeply shocked that you don't draw your attention to something like "Is there a crash or not". Moreover, the dead body was thrown from the first (?) floor, that makes a difference from falling from the top of the roof.
Hm, I'm still wondering ...
 


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I'm your landlady - not a plot device!

There are 10 voices in my head. 9 of them tell me I'm crazy. One is humming.
 

July 14, 2015 10:20 am  #19


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

REReader wrote:

I don't know if they needed to drop a dead body out of a window or not, but I'm pretty sure they needed a dead body to give a death certificate to--and it would have to be one roughly the right size to be Sherlock (so Moriarty's body would definitely not do).

Don't think so, not when Molly and Mycroft were in on it. They could just make the body disappear. The more interesting question is how they stopped John from seeing his friend one last time ("He's not a pretty sight, you really don't want to remember him like this" wouldn't stop a doctor and/or soldier, I think).

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I always thought John's assassin would have seen the airbag and realised that Sherlock had faked it then bumped John off.

I thought that could be explained by Mycroft's men taking out the assassin, but upon checking the transcript (http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/31651.html) I have to say you are right - the assassin makes a voluntary decision not to shoot John.

The more I think about the "solution", the less sense it makes... (Really, if I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief enough to accept it, I can just as easily believe that Sherlock is an Immortal of the Highlander variety. And I'm surprised that nobody has written that story...)

 
 

 

July 14, 2015 10:53 am  #20


Re: I hope I'm wrong about this...

I suppose it would normally be up to the family whether or not a body was available for viewing (and Sherlock's parents were in on the deception).  So it's plausible enough to me that John would not see a body after Sherlock was carried away. 

 

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