BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » One more miracle

tobeornot221b · April 4, 2012 7:53 pm

In his soliloquy John says: "I was so alone and I owe you so much. But please, there’s just one more thing, one more thing, one more miracle, Sherlock, for me: Don’t. Be. Dead."

John doesn’t say: "One miracle" (that alone would be a sign of ridiculously strong confidence!), but "One more miracle."
What might he consider having been the first one? (He never tells!)
The relationship with Sherlock having him brought back to live?
And if so: Obviously he sees an almost to zero tending resurrection of Sherlock on the same level as having been saved from his depression.
What do you think?

sherlocked · April 4, 2012 8:07 pm

Maybe, he saw Sherlock as the Miracle Man? Who has performed many miracles during their short, but intense friendship, saving him from his post war depression being one of them, curing his psychosomatic limp another one... And while his head tells him, Sherlock is dead, his heart tells him, that Sherlock is perfectly capable of returning from the dead, because he's.... Sherlock.

Sherlock Holmes · April 4, 2012 9:07 pm

And he has witnessed someone else return from the dead (Miss Adler).

But yeah, I've always took that line to mean the miracle of meeting Sherlock in the first place and Sherlock having helped him out of his depression and so on.

Wholocked · April 4, 2012 11:14 pm

I always just intepreted it that John sees Sherlock's deductions and subsequent crime solving as miraculous. He knows it's just observation and logic but it still seems like a miracle to him.

ancientsgate · June 14, 2012 5:19 am

tobeornot221b wrote:
In his soliloquy John says: "I was so alone and I owe you so much. But please, there’s just one more thing, one more thing, one more miracle, Sherlock, for me: Don’t. Be. Dead."

John doesn’t say: "One miracle" (that alone would be a sign of ridiculously strong confidence!), but "One more miracle."
What might he consider having been the first one? (He never tells!)
The relationship with Sherlock having him brought back to live?
And if so: Obviously he sees an almost to zero tending resurrection of Sherlock on the same level as having been saved from his depression.
What do you think?

John getting rid of that crutch almost immediately after meeting Sherlock, following him on that chase across the rooftops, etc, seemed pretty darned miraculous.

He rescued John from a lonely life of having nothing to do, no one to talk to, nothing fun, etc. Must have seemed like a miracle.

I think the "don't be dead" as well as the "stop it, just stop this" thing at the graveside was interesting. Hmmm... how does someone who's dead stop being so? I've never seen such hope as John shows in that moment. Lovely writing, lovely acting. Made me cry.

Morton · July 13, 2012 10:38 pm

I think John has a great deal of confidence in Sherlock's ability, an ability to do things that he's never seen other people managing to do. He was completely convinced after Sherlock explained how he could draw very accurate conclusions about John and Harry - the proof of that is in Sherlock's 'note' when John says" no, the first time we met,the first time we met, you knew about Harry" -from handling John's phone- Sherlock's reply is "nobody could be that clever" John immediately says "You could". Clever enough to do what The Woman did too, as we know. Clever enough to do things that seem miraculous. So John asks Sherlock for one more miracle,for him, knowing he's gone somewhere, isn't dead, but has to appear that he is. I think John is that astute. I would LIKE to think also Sherlock gave John hints in the 'note'

ancientsgate · July 13, 2012 11:58 pm

Morton wrote:
I would LIKE to think also Sherlock gave John hints in the 'note'

Interesting. What do you think the clues were? I'm still pondering all of that rooftop scene (and what follows) in my mind, even a couple of months after having first seen it.

Morton · July 15, 2012 8:41 am

ancientsgate wrote:
Morton wrote:
I would LIKE to think also Sherlock gave John hints in the 'note'
Interesting. What do you think the clues were? I'm still pondering all of that rooftop scene (and what follows) in my mind, even a couple of months after having first seen it.

Hmm, well, it may be a case of me wanting everything to be very clever but.......Sherlock knows John 100% believes in him and as we see in earlier episodes John easily goes along with and joins in with Sherlock's angle when interiewing people.

John gets out of the taxi answering his phone and begins to walk to Barts. Sherlock is anxious to place John where the sniper will see him but won't also see the landing after he jumps. He tells John to walk back anxiously but then firmly tells him exactly where stop. His voice is fairly calm when he says � Okay, look up. I’m on the rooftop� .

SHERLOCK: I ... I ... I can’t come down, so we’ll ... we’ll just have to do it like this.
(Hint 1 he would come down but cannot = not suicidal.)

SHERLOCK: An apology. It’s all true.
(This is part of what Sherlock must say in case the rooftop is bugged. He says its “an apology� but when he apologises to anyone he says “I'm sorry� maybe I'm being pedantic here but a writer doesn't waste lines. Plus he doesn't tell a lie to John.)

SHERLOCK: Everything they said about me. I invented Moriarty.
(He looks behind himself at Moriarty's body indicating to John it is there).

SHERLOCK: The newspapers were right all along. I want you to tell Lestrade; I want you to tell Mrs Hudson, and Molly ... in fact, tell anyone who will listen to you that I created Moriarty for my own purposes.
(John knows the cases weren't faked. Three people of a long list, too long to name, who also know that's not true)

SHERLOCK: I researched you. Before we met I discovered everything that I could to impress you.
(John knows that's not true, when Stamford took him in the lab to introduce them Stamford said to John he hadn't said a word to Sherlock)
SHERLOCK: It’s a trick. Just a magic trick.
(in the Blind Banker - to Sebastian the banker who Sherlock knew from Uni “It's not a trick.� John was sitting there also)

SHERLOCK: This phone call – it’s, er ... it’s my note. It’s what people do, don’t they – leave a note?
Partly in case rooftop is bugged to explain the phone call. X-raying The Woman's phone in the lab Molly says “people do silly things� he replies “they do� Sherlock isn't "people".

Loving discussing this, I look forward to your response.

SusiGo · July 15, 2012 9:00 am

Morton, thanks for the detailed analysis of the phone call. You're right, it is not entirely in character with Sherlock. But what does this mean? He cannot deliver a secret message to John and want him to believe in his suicide at the same time. I think it can be only one or the other. If there was a message hidden in the "note", Sherlock's plan fails because we see John with his therapist and at the grave and he is clearly mourning. I don't think that John would fake his feelings just in order to convince people that Sherlock is dead.

ancientsgate · July 15, 2012 9:02 am

Morton wrote:
Hmm, well, it may be a case of me wanting everything to be very clever but.......Sherlock knows John 100% believes in him and as we see in earlier episodes John easily goes along with and joins in with Sherlock's angle when interviewing people.

John gets out of the taxi answering his phone and begins to walk to Barts. Sherlock is anxious to place John where the sniper will see him but won't also see the landing after he jumps. He tells John to walk back anxiously but then firmly tells him exactly where stop. His voice is fairly calm when he says � Okay, look up. I’m on the rooftop� .

SHERLOCK: I ... I ... I can’t come down, so we’ll ... we’ll just have to do it like this.
(Hint 1 he would come down but cannot = not suicidal.)

SHERLOCK: An apology. It’s all true.
(This is part of what Sherlock must say in case the rooftop is bugged. He says its “an apology� but when he apologises to anyone he says “I'm sorry� maybe I'm being pedantic here but a writer doesn't waste lines. Plus he doesn't tell a lie to John.)

SHERLOCK: Everything they said about me. I invented Moriarty.
(He looks behind himself at Moriarty's body indicating to John it is there).

SHERLOCK: The newspapers were right all along. I want you to tell Lestrade; I want you to tell Mrs Hudson, and Molly ... in fact, tell anyone who will listen to you that I created Moriarty for my own purposes.
(John knows the cases weren't faked. Three people of a long list, too long to name, who also know that's not true)

SHERLOCK: I researched you. Before we met I discovered everything that I could to impress you.
(John knows that's not true, when Stamford took him in the lab to introduce them Stamford said to John he hadn't said a word to Sherlock)
SHERLOCK: It’s a trick. Just a magic trick.
(in the Blind Banker - to Sebastian the banker who Sherlock knew from Uni “It's not a trick.� John was sitting there also)

SHERLOCK: This phone call – it’s, er ... it’s my note. It’s what people do, don’t they – leave a note?
Partly in case rooftop is bugged to explain the phone call. X-raying The Woman's phone in the lab Molly says “people do silly things� he replies “they do� Sherlock isn't "people".

Loving discussing this, I look forward to your response.

Well, to me, you can take the rooftop scene, all of it, at face value-- for instance, Sherlock didn't know Moriarty was going to eat his gun, but he did know he was going to fall, since M had told him as much back at 221b, so that was all arranged, and then Sherlock had to get John on the other side of that small building down below, so he wouldn't actually see Sherlock hit the deck. Or you can read all kinds of things into it, examining every word as you have here. I think the some of the subtleties you mention here, like Sherlock looking back at Moriarty's body so John would know it was there, would be absolutely lost on John, standing 50 feet down and 50 feet out and trying to have this Most Serious Discussion on a damned phone instead of face to face. Maybe in retrospect, I suppose, he'd analyze it to death (as we are, lol) and start to pick up on some subtle clues.

Yes, Sherlock told John some really obvious lies during that phone call-- John even argued with him a bit at one point. John, I believe, never really thought Sherlock would actually do what he did, until he saw him doing it. I mean, why was Sherlock saying all that crazy stuff anyway, but then when he took the leap, wow--- SHERLOCK! Every time I watch that, the sheer horror of what John must be experiencing, watching his friend fling himself into oblivion like that, just blows me away.

What I can't figure out (not just in this episode but in all of them) is why Sherlock so deliberately keeps John in the dark about stuff, important stuff. If John is supposed to be his friend and assistant and extra eyes, ears and hands, why is he not privy to everything Sherlock knows about something they're working on? And vice versa holds true as well-- John's visits with Mycroft, for instance-- he never told Sherlock about any of that. He never told Sherlock about the envelope with the bread crumbs until much later-- granted, they were busy, but how long would it have taken? The two of them are a couple of pieces of work, aren't they. heh

Sometimes I think the writer(s) of this show are almost too smart and clever for the room (well, my room anyway). I confess my brain is turning to mush, trying to figure out what any of this means! It's fun, but my gray matter is getting really tired! *g*

ancientsgate · July 15, 2012 9:07 am

SusiGo wrote:
Morton, thanks for the detailed analysis of the phone call. You're right, it is not entirely in character with Sherlock. But what does this mean? He cannot deliver a secret message to John and want him to believe in his suicide at the same time. I think it can be only one or the other. If there was a message hidden in the "note", Sherlock's plan fails because we see John with his therapist and at the grave and he is clearly mourning. I don't think that John would fake his feelings just in order to convince people that Sherlock is dead.

John knows Sherlock is dead. He saw the leap. He saw the blood, the lifeless eyes. He saw some kind of container go in the ground. He sees the gravestone with the name of his friend on it. He sees the empty flat on Baker Street, the end of all the worry, fun and frustration of working and living with Sherlock. He knows he's dead.

But he couldn't help himself, could he. He had to ask, just in case Sherlock was listening-- one more miracle, Sherlock, for me-- Don't. Be. Dead. Just stop it, stop this.

So John is mourning-- I think he's absolutely a realist-- but he's also convinced that something fishy's going on and that maybe, just maybe, Sherlock can pull one more rabbit out of his.... greatcoat.

SusiGo · July 15, 2012 9:13 am

Ancientsgate: About leaving John in the dark so often - that might be a nod to the canon. I seem to remember that it's typical of Sherlock to investigate on his own in the city, actually much more often than in the series where John is at his side most of the time, he has even quite a number of secret hideaways in all parts of London nobody knows of (a fact that hasn't been used in the series). And he often lets John in the dark about his theories or new developments in a case and surprises him later on with his deductions. As for John keeping things from Sherlock: he did tell Sherlock about his encounter with Mycroft and the offer he made. Sherlock even joked he should have taken the money and split it with him. Regarding his talk with Mycroft at Speedy's in ASiB it was out of worry I think. They kept the news about Irene from Sherlock because they worried about his reaction. The only thing that confused me was about the envelope with the crumbs. That was a bit odd indeed.

ancientsgate · July 15, 2012 9:33 am

SusiGo wrote:
Ancientsgate: About leaving John in the dark so often - that might be a nod to the canon. I seem to remember that it's typical of Sherlock to investigate on his own in the city, actually much more often than in the series where John is at his side most of the time, he has even quite a number of secret hideaways in all parts of London nobody knows of (a fact that hasn't been used in the series). And he often lets John in the dark about his theories or new developments in a case and surprises him later on with his deductions. As for John keeping things from Sherlock: he did tell Sherlock about his encounter with Mycroft and the offer he made. Sherlock even joked he should have taken the money and split it with him. Regarding his talk with Mycroft at Speedy's in ASiB it was out of worry I think. They kept the news about Irene from Sherlock because they worried about his reaction. The only thing that confused me was about the envelope with the crumbs. That was a bit odd indeed.

I have not read the original ACD stories. To me, "canon" is the current show, lol. The only canon I know.

Fascinating about the secret hidey-holes around London. When they made the pilot, I think they were still toying with the decision about how mysterious to make Sherlock-- remember him on the rooftop in the moonlight, looking like Batman in a greatcoat, while John looked on from below? That was not repeated in ASiP, so apparently they decided not to use that rather spooky Halloween-esque kind of imagery.

I like a 100% human Sherlock with no super powers. As he said, he just SEES and then makes his deductions. He's flabbergasted that no one else seems to be able to do that-- maybe that does make him super-human (as John alludes to in the graveyard in TRF), but I like to think not.

SusiGo · July 15, 2012 9:59 am

Yes, you're right with the rooftop scene in the Pilot. Quite nice to watch, but not really in character with Sherlock. It somehow reminded me of Harry Potter . I once read all ACD stories but that was a long time ago. I guess I'll have to catch up on them, maybe over here in the book club thread. You can get them for free on Kindle.

JaneCo · July 15, 2012 10:19 am

In case anyone is interested who hasn't invested in a Newfangled-Kindley-Thingy you can also download the entire canon in pdf form to your computer. If anyone is interested I will hunt out how I did it and post on the technical thread.

kazza474 · July 15, 2012 10:30 am

JaneCo wrote:
In case anyone is interested who hasn't invested in a Newfangled-Kindley-Thingy you can also download the entire canon in pdf form to your computer. If anyone is interested I will hunt out how I did it and post on the technical thread.

LOL!
Great minds; I just posted this in another thread:
Remember if anyone doesn't have the whole collection; it's online here:
http://archive.org/details/SherlockHolmesComplete

I choose the pdf version; I don't have a kindle, no need really.

It REALLY is a MUST to read the originals to understand this series better.

JaneCo · July 15, 2012 11:01 am

Thanks Kazza, I've been struggling to find the site. I have found free audio books too but haven't tried downloading.

I know the words 'granny' and 'suck eggs' will immediately occur to everyone here when I say ~ Be careful where you download from

Edit: Just had a quick look and I'm fairly sure it's the same site so hopefully OK

Last edited by JaneCo (July 15, 2012 11:03 am)

Sumac60 · July 16, 2012 5:45 am

Man, I've got to get back to my life...but here I am again...

I believe of course that Sherlock really falls and that there are no devices on the ground or on the way down to break his fall. He's got to either have the life saving device on him or it's introduced into the sidewalk but it's invisible and that's not logical because of the lack of time (though he could have been planning that for some time of course)

I am perplexed by the low building--why is it necessary and is it to hide something? But aside from that, I think he needs to call Watson and have him at a distance so he can slow down Watson's approach to the scene, but also to prove that things are actually happening in real time. No fakery is going on (in Watson's eyes) because he's a witness and his conversation proves it. Sherlock throws away the phone, perhaps to keep identification away from himself. (or maybe Mycroft or Molly know to pick it up later?)

The other reason for the "letter" is because Sherlock wants to plant a highly terrorizing emotional feeling in Watson's mind. Even though the building isn't so high that a clever, prepared Sherlock wouldn't have, say, a 50/50 chance of survival, Watson has the suicide idea firmly planted in his mind, and the bicycle accident makes him even more disoriented. If Watson had the idea somehow that Holmes was running away from an attacker, he might run to the scene still hoping that Holmes would be able to pull off a miracle, but he's got a suicide letter ringing in his ears and that horrible vision of the jump and is driven to despair. He's had a feeling of intense dread anyway, from the time he sees he's been tricked to run to the flat.

I'm not concerned about the fact that the paramedic pulls Watson's hand away from Sherlock's pulse or that they form a barrier to onlookers as soon as they can. He's an onlooker, despite the claims of being a doctor. (If you were a paramedic or doctor and some random guy came up and demanded to take the victim's pulse, would you let him?) I don't think Watson ever gets a chance to get a good reading, so his imagination gets the better of him.

I'm sure Sherlock knows statistics--that your chance of survival is probably inversely porportional to the length of time it takes the doctors to start treating you. He did choose to jump off a hospital building, after all. Molly's contacts are likely at the ready, and in my imagination I see Mycroft whisking him away to some secret location for treatment, and Molly arranging for a different body to be prepared for the funeral.

I think the grave visit is at least several weeks after the funeral; maybe a month or so. It doesn't have to be right after the therapist visit. Ms Hudson wouldn't have boxed up Sherlock's things for some time; she wouldn't be able to emotionally. They would both be in shock for some time and would barely be able to move--Watson could have sat in that chair for days. So Sherlock has had a bit of time to heal from the worst of his wounds. Also (forgive me) but the soil at the grave site has settled, and there would have been big bunches of funeral flowers that are no longer there. He was famous, after all, and would have had lots of fan attention, even if considered a fraud--fame is like that.

As for the rubber ball...is it a red herring? Is he mentally measuring the forces upon an object hitting a surface at a distance? Just agitated? Really cool prop, and I have no idea, but I don't think the pulse trick is necessary, because of the way first responders would behave.

As for the tears (which to me are just as likely to be raindrops) and wavering voice, I really do think that was faked on his part; (don't hit me!) the reason is that if Sherlock were about to do something of such great importance and calculation, his scientific mind would take over and totally push any emotions to the side. He would be 100% focused and mechanical at that moment; his so-called inhumanity would be in hyperdrive. In the cemetary you see the emotions.

Last edited by Sumac60 (July 16, 2012 5:50 am)

ancientsgate · July 16, 2012 6:20 am

Sumac60 wrote:
Man, I've got to get back to my life...but here I am again...

I believe of course that Sherlock really falls and that there are no devices on the ground or on the way down to break his fall. He's got to either have the life saving device on him or it's introduced into the sidewalk but it's invisible and that's not logical because of the lack of time (though he could have been planning that for some time of course)

I am perplexed by the low building--why is it necessary and is it to hide something? But aside from that, I think he needs to call Watson and have him at a distance so he can slow down Watson's approach to the scene, but also to prove that things are actually happening in real time. No fakery is going on (in Watson's eyes) because he's a witness and his conversation proves it. Sherlock throws away the phone, perhaps to keep identification away from himself. (or maybe Mycroft or Molly know to pick it up later?)

The other reason for the "letter" is because Sherlock wants to plant a highly terrorizing emotional feeling in Watson's mind. Even though the building isn't so high that a clever, prepared Sherlock wouldn't have, say, a 50/50 chance of survival, Watson has the suicide idea firmly planted in his mind, and the bicycle accident makes him even more disoriented. If Watson had the idea somehow that Holmes was running away from an attacker, he might run to the scene still hoping that Holmes would be able to pull off a miracle, but he's got a suicide letter ringing in his ears and that horrible vision of the jump and is driven to despair. He's had a feeling of intense dread anyway, from the time he sees he's been tricked to run to the flat.

I'm not concerned about the fact that the paramedic pulls Watson's hand away from Sherlock's pulse or that they form a barrier to onlookers as soon as they can. He's an onlooker, despite the claims of being a doctor. (If you were a paramedic or doctor and some random guy came up and demanded to take the victim's pulse, would you let him?) I don't think Watson ever gets a chance to get a good reading, so his imagination gets the better of him.

I'm sure Sherlock knows statistics--that your chance of survival is probably inversely porportional to the length of time it takes the doctors to start treating you. He did choose to jump off a hospital building, after all. Molly's contacts are likely at the ready, and in my imagination I see Mycroft whisking him away to some secret location for treatment, and Molly arranging for a different body to be prepared for the funeral.

I think the grave visit is at least several weeks after the funeral; maybe a month or so. It doesn't have to be right after the therapist visit. Ms Hudson wouldn't have boxed up Sherlock's things for some time; she wouldn't be able to emotionally. They would both be in shock for some time and would barely be able to move--Watson could have sat in that chair for days. So Sherlock has had a bit of time to heal from the worst of his wounds. Also (forgive me) but the soil at the grave site has settled, and there would have been big bunches of funeral flowers that are no longer there. He was famous, after all, and would have had lots of fan attention, even if considered a fraud--fame is like that.

As for the rubber ball...is it a red herring? Is he mentally measuring the forces upon an object hitting a surface at a distance? Just agitated? Really cool prop, and I have no idea, but I don't think the pulse trick is necessary, because of the way first responders would behave.

As for the tears (which to me are just as likely to be raindrops) and wavering voice, I really do think that was faked on his part; (don't hit me!) the reason is that if Sherlock were about to do something of such great importance and calculation, his scientific mind would take over and totally push any emotions to the side. He would be 100% focused and mechanical at that moment; his so-called inhumanity would be in hyperdrive. In the cemetery you see the emotions.

A long interesting post.

I don't know that someone can jump from 70 feet and not only survive but survive intact. Even if somehow the head were spared, there would be major trauma to legs, pelvis, internal organs, spinal column, etc. Survive and end up in a wheelchair maybe. If he'd jumped 20 or 30 feet, maybe what you say about jumping without a net might be feasible. But 70 feet? Nah. I don't buy it. Sherlock is a cool dude, but he's not made of silly putty.

And then there's the scene with Molly, right before. She asks what he needs. If he didn't need anything, why did he go there, tell her he thought he was about to die, etc. She helped him somehow. If not with the actual landing then with a cover-up in the morgue, supplying the blood he needed for the scene, making sure someone else got put in that casket or cremated, helping with something or several somethings.

The reason for the building being in the way and for John getting knocked down is that it was necessary for him to believe it, to not actually see the body hit the deck and then to have a few seconds to take the net away (did you see the truck leave as John approached?), position the body, spread the blood around, etc. This is why Sherlock told him to go back and to "stop right there...look up" when he judged John to be in the right position to be the kind of witness he needed him to be. Don't forget--- it was absolutely essential that the gunman across the street in the window also not see the actual hitting-the-sidewalk-- all the gunman needed to see was the drop and then the unresponsive body taken away on a stretcher. So the building-in-the-way was for his benefit as well. Sherlock could have picked any location to take his "fall"-- as Moriarty observed, Sherlock was the one who had picked it-- I think he says something like "You're the one who called me here," or something like that. Sherlock knew that building would be in the way of anyone seeing the actual strike.

Yes, I think the crowd would have allowed John to take a pulse if they hadn't been forewarned not to allow it. In that minute or two right after an incident like that, some guy saying I'm a doctor, he's my friend, and physically pushing in would be allowed. We have no evidence of any doctor being there, only EMTs, and EMTs would always give way for anyone announcing as a doctor, IMO, especially in the adrenaline-fueled first-rush after an incident.

I think the tears were real and not raindrops (look at his face in those scenes with the dripping tears-- he was actually crying)-- either crocodile tears to put drama into his voice and lend credence to "his note", or real ones, born of real emotion-- fear of what he had to do now (scary as f***, jumping, even for Sherlock), death of pride (even saying the I'm fake, it's all a trick, I researched you lies out loud would have been real hard for him), concern for those he cares about (knowing full well how very traumatized John would be in the days and weeks to come, what he was doing to Mrs. Hudson, etc), regret that this terrible thing with Moriarty ever started and had come to such a traumatic end.

Interesting discussion. And we have so many, many months to wait to see what the writers want to give us.... I hope they give us *something*, after all this. I will have no patience for white-washing or hand-waving. I want DETAILS, FACTS! *g*

Arya · July 16, 2012 4:57 pm

My question is, why was Sherlock telling John those lies about him being a fake? Did he seriously think that John would believe him? I mean, if Sherlock was about to fake his death and planned to eventually reunite with John, telling John he was a fake wouldn't exactly help John forgive him. So what was the point?