Willow wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Mary made a decision in a split second. It might have been the wrong one, but she did it, and she did have to face the consequences. It might not look much for some people, but I think that John would have had a much easier time to forgive her if not for her shooting Sherlock, and a part of him will always be angry about it - which is in a way, for Mary one of the worst punishments she could face. She would have prefered to stay Mary Morstan in John's eyes.

Sherlock's decision on the other hand was not one he did in a short moment, but one he planned ahead. He planned ahead that John would see his suicide. Everyone who ever dealt with suicidal loved ones knows what a toll this takes on the ones left behind. It was an unbelievable cruel thing to do.

In both cases, though, John's feelings are the most important part for me. He forgave them. And that's it for me.

 
I'm sorry but suggesting that Sherlock was being unbelievably cruel implies that Sherlock had meaningful alternatives. And given the plot he had no alternatives; he was acting to save lives. The fact that John carried such crippling guilt was because John had been incredibly unkind in his last conversation with Sherlock before he rushed off to the supposedly dying Mrs Hudson; John was guilty because he knew he had said dreadful, and completely unjustified, things.

There is nothing in the programme to suggest that Sherlock did have alternatives when he was faced with a Moriarty who was prepared to die rather than give up the abort code; Sherlock had no reason to expect that John would get back to Bart's, so the 'suicide' cannot have been set up for John's benefit. There is no evidence to support the belief that it was. I am baffled as to how people can completely ignore the evidence in order to arrive at a full blown melodramatic romance drama featuring a poor tragic figure and a dreadful villain who just happens to have saved a lot of people's lives, including that of the poor tragic figure.

As far as I can tell you would have preferred a situation in which everybody died; I appreciate that Götterdämmerung has dramatic attraction but then there would have been no Season 3. I prefer the outcome which provides us with Season 3, and I am living in hope that John will grow up and stop flouncing. Who knows, someday he may become the sort of person you could trust to keep a secret.

In the real world the consequences of killing someone are rather higher than the disapprobation of a loved one; suggesting that Mary has faced the consequences when it is only the disapprobation of a loved one is perilously close to farce. Sherlock, by contrast, was prepared to pay with his own life; he accepted that he had murdered someone. It is Mary who argues that some people should be killed and that therefore it is not murder; she has no morality beyond what she wants...

Add to that, that no-one seems to think about--okay, Sherlock puts John first, tells him (on the fly) what's he's had to decide to do-- and, though maybe John survives, now Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade are dead. 

There's a tendency to think *only* of John-- his feelings, his reactions-- and never hold him to account for his own refusal to take responsibilty for his own choices. Sometimes, I think that a lot of his griping about Sherlock, is really him not liking himself-- and he can see some of those tendencies refected right back at him Sherlock. 

It's not "his fault", but it is, "his Choice."

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 28, 2014 2:30 am)

Where did you read that this plotline is done??? That would indeed be unsatisfying!!!
Haven't read that so far..

Tinks wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

Where did you read that this plotline is done??? That would indeed be unsatisfying!!!
Haven't read that so far..

My apologies - I've not explained myself very well
It's only my belief, based on comments made by the writers - such as them saying that the way she broke in was quite straightforward.
It just gives me the impression that we are expected to accept what she did and move on, but I didn't mean to sound as though I was quoting it as fact!
I'd love them to go back to this because for me, there was too much that didn't add up.

Honestly, I think they underestimated the fans. I love the show. I will continue to watch the show-- but. I will be very unhappy if this turns into the "John, Mary and Baby" Show, with just enough Sherlock to still retain the title. 

Somehow I very much doubt Moftiss will go down that route. It really isn't their MO.

A thought has occurred to me however regarding Mary and her actions. She seems to have been put into the role/character of what would normally/often be that of a man. Just something to ponder on.

Willow wrote:

Davina wrote:

Somehow I very much doubt Moftiss will go down that route. It really isn't their MO.

A thought has occurred to me however regarding Mary and her actions. She seems to have been put into the role/character of what would normally/often be that of a man. Just something to ponder on.

I entirely agree about Moftiss's MO; they wouldn't derive any fun from it, which means they won't do it.

I'm certain that they were not doing a 'strong female figure who can do everything better than our heroes' because they know a Mary Sue when they see one; I think that how Mary got in will be revealed in S4 since they were so studiously casual about it. The office and the flat have floor to ceiling glass walls so the bit about the windows was an obvious wind up

But given that in the original the villain was shot by a woman whose husband had committed suicide, I don't think that MO are necessarily deciding to make this a role reversal theme. It's interesting that they found a twist, albeit one which kills off our hero, if only temporarily, to confront us with a different question; what is our reaction to someone being blackmailed because they are a murderer? Do we still have the sympathy that we have when Sherlock assumes that it is Lady Smallwood?

Obviously some people do retain the sympathy, even after the character puts a bullet into our hero; I find this bizarre




 

This is actually where I get-- confused and just a little dissapointed? Insulted? Saddened? Hopelessly beffudled?  -- and, honestly... intrigued. There's so much you can do with that scenario; but it does stretch credibility to breaking-- and my own abilty to just blindly accept and forgive Maryjust  because Sherlock and John apparently do-- it's just not happening, I can't get over my instinctive anger and mistrust of her. I think it also creates a schism in the fandom; there are those who want so badly for Mary to be redeemed, and those who can't forgive her. It's utterly bewildering. 

I don't think Mofftiss expect or even want the audience to think that it's all ok; there were many ways they could have tipped the scales and they didn't. They are experienced writers who know that writing for the relatively small numbers of people who are fans, ie go beyond merely watching and enjoying the show, is not a good idea. They love the show and they want to keep it going, which means that they want the many millions of people to keep liking the show.

In other words, creating a schism in fandom doesn't interest them; keeping Sherlock going does. And most of the people in fandom who are getting really worked up about it are the ones who want Sherlock to be about romantic love, and perceive it in those terms. I really don't think Moftiss, who are total ACD fanboys, have any intention of moving Sherlock away from canon; I can see no evidence that they have any intention of doing so. Sherlock and Watson have a lifetime of friendship in front of them, but there will be no adorable babies in Baker St.

And it will be fascinating to see how that happens

So, I've done some thinking about all of this-- and if you add in the info that Sherlock was hospitalized for *months*-- it makes this whole attitude of forgiveness even less plausible. So, it makes me think that, since Sherlock knew before mary and John that they were expecting a child, his forgiveness has to do with the child's safey, and John's happiness. It also makes me think that after the baby is born, Mary's saftey becomes null. Hmmmmmmm....dang plot bunnies!

I've been wondering if Sherlock's forgiveness might derive from the idea that sooner or later John would have to decide between a life as a husband and father and a life with Sherlock, and also after probably having spent quite a lot of time thinking about the whole CAM business, Sherlock must have known that the outcome might be very bad. He knew that he wouldn't be able to stay with John forever, that there would come a point where he would't be able to be with him or where he would need to step back or where John would have to leave. So giving him the chance of building a life with Mary might have been some way of trying to give John some security, something that would last. Sherlock was willing to give up everything for John, and 'giving' him to Mary was probably his way of saying 'I know you can make him happy. Look after him when I won't be able to do it any more'.

I don't know if this sounds plausible.

Last edited by Lily (February 2, 2014 9:35 pm)

Tinks wrote:

Oh I absolutely believe that what Sherlock did was the ultimate act of love and friendship - in the end his love for John is actually less selfish in nature than Mary's is - he believes that Mary loves John (I think) so it doesn't matter that she tried to kill him or that John is so willing to forget what she did... Sherlock, underneath the outward arrogance - doesn't expect to be of that kind of importance to anyone anyway - look how shocked he is in TRF when he realises that John is actually worried about him.

 +1

Tinks wrote:

Willow, Lil, I agree with so much of what you've both said.
Just to be clear - I love the show and the canon, and I hate when writers tip their hats to fandoms - but in canon Watson was supremely loyal to Holmes: you never would expect him to forgive anyone who harmed him - no matter who it was.
This is why, unless the writers have something up their sleeves, I'm so dissatisfied with John's easy forgiveness and easy acceptance of the fact that Sherlock is being sent away from the life he knows because of what he's done for John and Mary.

One more thing - having watched some scenes of HLV several times now, I'm absolutely convinced that Sherlock is lying to John about Mary not trying to kill him... I think he knows that she shot to kill.

Well, yeah. And actually, she succeeded in killing him, at least temporarily. :-)