BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » How Mary could have shot Sherlock and everyone forgave her for it

RavenMorganLeigh · February 11, 2014 10:12 pm

Regina Alexandra wrote:
I realize the writers have a time slot restriction and need to keep the plot moving along. However I would have loved to have seen Mycroft's reaction to the news that his brother had been shot. What did Mycroft do? How quickly did Mycroft figure out that Mary was the one who fired the shot? Does Mycroft know the truth about her past? Has Mycroft forgiven her? Did Sherlock intervene on Mary's behalf with Mycroft?

Err. YEAH. And thanks for giving me a plot bunny. :-)

Regina Alexandra · February 11, 2014 10:20 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Regina Alexandra wrote:
I realize the writers have a time slot restriction and need to keep the plot moving along. However I would have loved to have seen Mycroft's reaction to the news that his brother had been shot. What did Mycroft do? How quickly did Mycroft figure out that Mary was the one who fired the shot? Does Mycroft know the truth about her past? Has Mycroft forgiven her? Did Sherlock intervene on Mary's behalf with Mycroft?
Err. YEAH. And thanks for giving me a plot bunny. :-)

Go for it and good luck.

Willow · February 11, 2014 10:32 pm

Regina Alexandra wrote:
I realize the writers have a time slot restriction and need to keep the plot moving along. However I would have loved to have seen Mycroft's reaction to the news that his brother had been shot. What did Mycroft do? How quickly did Mycroft figure out that Mary was the one who fired the shot? Does Mycroft know the truth about her past? Has Mycroft forgiven her? Did Sherlock intervene on Mary's behalf with Mycroft?

I don't think Mycroft does forgiveness, particularly when it applies to nearly killing someone whom he not only loves but also regards as a national asset; that is, for Mycroft, a species of treason. I'm fairly sure that Sherlock has more sense than to try to intervene on Mary's behalf with his brother; the exceedingly thin explanation about how Mary's shot was 'surgery' might have been swallowed by John, nowadays a GP, and heavily into denial, but Mycroft would have gone straight to the brightest and the best, who would have explained to him the probabilities of his brother surviving, viz not good.

I assume Mycroft knows about Mary's past because even the most cursory of security checks would have pulled it up, and I also assume that he was content, for his own reasons, to let it rest. Of course, once Sherlock has survived it becomes a possible method of bringing CAM down, with the cover of wanting to get the documentation relating to Mary when in reality the vaults of Appledore were Mycroft's and Sherlock's target.

Willow · February 11, 2014 10:42 pm

lil wrote:
Yes...She didn't ask for forgiveness and she didn't get it either.
What she got from Sherlock was a logical acceptance without emotions.
What she got from John was more a burn the past , the futures going to be different.

And all in Mycroft's presence, who does logic better than Sherlock does, and lacks Sherlock's affection for John; it's going to be lots of fun.

My money's on Mycroft...

ancientsgate · February 11, 2014 11:20 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Regina Alexandra wrote:
I realize the writers have a time slot restriction and need to keep the plot moving along. However I would have loved to have seen Mycroft's reaction to the news that his brother had been shot. What did Mycroft do? How quickly did Mycroft figure out that Mary was the one who fired the shot? Does Mycroft know the truth about her past? Has Mycroft forgiven her? Did Sherlock intervene on Mary's behalf with Mycroft?
Err. YEAH. And thanks for giving me a plot bunny. :-)

That's what fan fic is for, to flesh out the actual show, in ways that make sense to the authors (and hopefully to his or her readers). Fan fic is great fun, and IMO it also suits a purpose in the hearts and minds of interested fans.

lil · February 12, 2014 12:37 am

Willow wrote:
lil wrote:
Yes...She didn't ask for forgiveness and she didn't get it either.
What she got from Sherlock was a logical acceptance without emotions.
What she got from John was more a burn the past , the futures going to be different.
And all in Mycroft's presence, who does logic better than Sherlock does, and lacks Sherlock's affection for John; it's going to be lots of fun.

My money's on Mycroft...

Hah..wld never bet against Mycroft.
Mary seems to have made another blunder..she called the ambulance from her own phone at the scene using her own voice.as she walked away.
Now how could lestrade/Mycroft miss that....

Willow · February 12, 2014 2:30 am

Right, another example of my tendency to disappear into the cyber void for no apparent reason; I could have sworn that I had responded to you.

Perhaps we could try it again when we are in the same timezones...

ancientsgate · February 12, 2014 3:35 am

lil wrote:
...Mary seems to have made another blunder..she called the ambulance from her own phone at the scene using her own voice.as she walked away.Now how could lestrade/Mycroft miss that....

Well, we don't yet know what will come out of the woodwork to bite Mary on the a**, two years from now, when we ever get to see new episodes. I thought the same thing, but I also thought it was deliberately left like that, hence the woodwork possibilities for 2015. Or 2016, whenever.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 12, 2014 3:50 am

ancientsgate wrote:
lil wrote:
...Mary seems to have made another blunder..she called the ambulance from her own phone at the scene using her own voice.as she walked away.Now how could lestrade/Mycroft miss that....

Well, we don't yet know what will come out of the woodwork to bite Mary on the a**, two years from now, when we ever get to see new episodes. I thought the same thing, but I also thought it was deliberately left like that, hence the woodwork possibilities for 2015. Or 2016, whenever.

No kidding.... CAM asserts that there are a whole bunch of people who want Mary dead. YIKES. Somehow, I don't think hiding away with John is going to cut it.

SolarSystem · February 12, 2014 6:31 am

Swanpride wrote:
And when I say that Mary isn't sorry for shooting Sherlock, she certainly is sorry for other decisions she made in the past. Sorry enough that she doesn't even like the person she had to be to do this (after all, she is convinced that not even John would be able to love her anymore if he knew...which might or might not be true).

Well, I'm not so sure that she doesn't like the person she was (and probably still is...). She's merely convinced that John won't like the person she was, which doesn't necessarily mean that she doesn't like that person, either.

besleybean · February 12, 2014 6:36 am

Though I think it's fairly clear she's ashamed of her past.

Tinks · February 12, 2014 6:53 am

To be honest as much as I love John (even though I'm cross with him at the moment:D), my issue really isn't about how Mary is with John - he's decided to remain with her regardless of her past, regardless of her shooting his best mate, and in complete ignorance of whatever else she may have done.
He's a grown up and he must now accept responsibility for any consequences that follow (although of course not reading her file means that if she DOES let him down again, he can blame Sherlock for telling him to trust Mary!)

My issue is in her almost costing a man his life because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and in how easily this was accepted as her "having no choice".
And while there's a strong likelihood of this being revisited, there's also the likelihood that the writers had Sherlock shoot CAM in order to say "look, they're really both very alike, he and Mary, so what she did is OK!"

But they're not very alike, for one - they both come from completely different areas of motivation.
And I don't feel comfortable if the plan is to demonise Sherlock slightly in order to make their version of Mary acceptable - they're in danger then of taking both John and Sherlock too far from Canon.

besleybean · February 12, 2014 7:03 am

But as long as the boys triumph in the end...I could live with that.

RavenMorganLeigh · February 12, 2014 7:27 am

Tinks wrote:
To be honest as much as I love John (even though I'm cross with him at the moment:D), my issue really isn't about how Mary is with John - he's decided to remain with her regardless of her past, regardless of her shooting his best mate, and in complete ignorance of whatever else she may have done.
He's a grown up and he must now accept responsibility for any consequences that follow (although of course not reading her file means that if she DOES let him down again, he can blame Sherlock for telling him to trust Mary!)

My issue is in her almost costing a man his life because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and in how easily this was accepted as her "having no choice".
And while there's a strong likelihood of this being revisited, there's also the likelihood that the writers had Sherlock shoot CAM in order to say "look, they're really both very alike, he and Mary, so what she did is OK!"

But they're not very alike, for one - they both come from completely different areas of motivation.
And I don't feel comfortable if the plan is to demonise Sherlock slightly in order to make their version of Mary acceptable - they're in danger then of taking both John and Sherlock too far from Canon.

(((((((APPLAUSE!!!!!!!)))))))))

ancientsgate · February 12, 2014 2:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
Though I think it's fairly clear she's ashamed of her past.

I never really got that vibe off her. I think she's ashamed of it inasmuch as John Watson is ashamed of it. She knows it matters to John, what her past was and what she did BJ-- before John-- and like any wife, she'd like it if he not only loved her but approved of her. There's so much we don't yet know about Mary and what makes her tick! She's definitely still a mystery woman.

ancientsgate · February 12, 2014 2:38 pm

Tinks wrote:
....And I don't feel comfortable if the plan is to demonise Sherlock slightly in order to make their version of Mary acceptable - they're in danger then of taking both John and Sherlock too far from Canon.

I don't know ACD's original canon hardly at all, so any decisions the current powers that be are making that are in opposition to the original canon are all going over my head.

That being said, you feel that Sherlock killing CAM demonized Sherlock? And yet, back in ASiP, we stood and applauded when John shot the cabbie in the back for putting Sherlock's life in danger. Not that the cabbie had a gun to Sherlock's head; in fact, his gun was proven to be a toy. He merely tempted Sherlock to relieve his boredom by putting his OWN life in danger by playing the good pill/bad pill game, foolish man. In fact, we applauded them both in ASiP, Sherlock and John, and they were both Less Than Perfect during that time, to say the least.

Moftiss et al are like painters on canvas. After all, they didn't invent or create wind, sky and water, but they can pick up their paintbrushes and recreate those things, using their own images. Maybe the universe meant all sunrises to be red and orange and fiery yellow, but our painters want to show their version of a sunrise in teal green and indigo blue--- who's to say they're wrong, just because they've created their own version/idea of a sunrise. And so it goes with anyone, the great Moftiss team, or the lowliest fan fic writer, they're all borrowing someone else's original creation and putting their own twists on it. And the rest of us can either stand there and appreciate that creation, or we can say "bah!", brush our hands off and keep walking. Our choice.

IOW, long story short (sorry, I know it's too late for that, lol), IMO whatever the current Sherlock showrunners have our hero do or don't do, that's up to them as the creative force behind him. To squash that and hold them to ONLY what ACD has previously written would be a real shame. They are building a brand new universe on top of the solid foundation of ACD's work.

Just my two cents. I don't see this Sherlock as demonized in any way, even though sometimes I'd like to slap him upside the head. Oh, yeah, never mind; he HAS been slapped upside the head already, hasn't he, and it hasn't made a bit of diff. Oh, well.

February 12, 2014 3:10 pm

I also wouldn't call it demonisation. But we simply get to see the dark side of Sherlock a bit clearer than before.
If we look at the dark side we might see that Sherlock in a way killed the guy who threatened John in Irene's flat when he opened the safe. He mentioned the safe word and ducked down. So he obviously suspected a hidden weapon.
He almost killed the MOD man who threatened Mrs Hudson. He was the one who survived the roof top situation when Moriarty died (I still think he is dead ). And if you think it through he was possibly prepared to do anything to not-die when he met Moriarty; killing him or creating a situation where he killed himself included). He tried to kill the Golem in the planetarium with a shot in the darkness. In Karachi he very likely killed one of the men with a sword.

Tinks · February 12, 2014 3:46 pm

@ancientgate
I personally can understand why Sherlock shot CAM.
I feel though that there's a danger that the writers are trying to demonise him by drawing a parallel between his behaviour and Mary's, in order to make what she did acceptable, and for me it doesn't work because the two of them are motivated differently - to me therefore, if they wanted us to accept Mary, this wasn't the way to do it.

ACD's John Watson was an ex Army man who occasionally acted like the soldier - as John did when he shot the cabby - it's a grey area this one because if Sherlock hadn't chosen to take the pill, he wasn't in danger - the justification here though is that the cabby had taken innocent lives and was dying anyway.
Again, not the same motivation as Mary.

Where I worry about them straying too far from Canon, is when John gets violent with Sherlock or disregards his physical distress and hurls insults at him, and the fact that *some* viewers have been left thinking that Sherlock becoming a "murderer" is wrong, no matter why he did it.

Finally on the issue of building a new Universe, I can't answer for fan fic, as I've no experience of reading or writing it, but Moftiss have always given us to understand that they won't stray too far from ACD's creation.
Of course if they're setting stories in the modern age they have to be updated.
And Holmes and Watson are slightly younger In this version, which also gives them scope to do things a little differently, but personally, I feel they should still be at heart the characters they went on to become .

Yes it's fine to take them both and shape them into two completely different people.
Only in that case, don't call it "Sherlock"

That's my take on it anyway - and I'm certainly not ready to carry on walking just yet

Last edited by Tinks (February 12, 2014 3:48 pm)

ancientsgate · February 12, 2014 4:07 pm

Tinks wrote:
...That's my take on it anyway - and I'm certainly not ready to carry on walking just yet

Me, either. For now, I'm here for the duration.

Hard to compare an 1890 Sherlock and John to a 2014 pair. People are basically the same now as they were then, but society has whoa!changed. So it's all a matter of opinion how Moftiss et al should go about hauling their S/J into the 21st century and still make it believable.

Willow · February 12, 2014 4:07 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Tinks wrote:
....And I don't feel comfortable if the plan is to demonise Sherlock slightly in order to make their version of Mary acceptable - they're in danger then of taking both John and Sherlock too far from Canon.
I don't know ACD's original canon hardly at all, so any decisions the current powers that be are making that are in opposition to the original canon are all going over my head.

That being said, you feel that Sherlock killing CAM demonized Sherlock? And yet, back in ASiP, we stood and applauded when John shot the cabbie in the back for putting Sherlock's life in danger. Not that the cabbie had a gun to Sherlock's head; in fact, his gun was proven to be a toy. He merely tempted Sherlock to relieve his boredom by putting his OWN life in danger by playing the good pill/bad pill game, foolish man. In fact, we applauded them both in ASiP, Sherlock and John, and they were both Less Than Perfect during that time, to say the least.

Moftiss et al are like painters on canvas. After all, they didn't invent or create wind, sky and water, but they can pick up their paintbrushes and recreate those things, using their own images. Maybe the universe meant all sunrises to be red and orange and fiery yellow, but our painters want to show their version of a sunrise in teal green and indigo blue--- who's to say they're wrong, just because they've created their own version/idea of a sunrise. And so it goes with anyone, the great Moftiss team, or the lowliest fan fic writer, they're all borrowing someone else's original creation and putting their own twists on it. And the rest of us can either stand there and appreciate that creation, or we can say "bah!", brush our hands off and keep walking. Our choice.

IOW, long story short (sorry, I know it's too late for that, lol), IMO whatever the current Sherlock showrunners have our hero do or don't do, that's up to them as the creative force behind him. To squash that and hold them to ONLY what ACD has previously written would be a real shame. They are building a brand new universe on top of the solid foundation of ACD's work.

Just my two cents. I don't see this Sherlock as demonized in any way, even though sometimes I'd like to slap him upside the head. Oh, yeah, never mind; he HAS been slapped upside the head already, hasn't he, and it hasn't made a bit of diff. Oh, well.

I agree with almost everything you say; my only reservations are that Moftiss are ACD fanboys, and Benedict has made it very clear that he signed up for the show provided it is true to the original spirit. Moftiss have acknowledged that if either Benedict or Martin pull out then it's game over. I would like Sherlock to continue for many years to come, Moftiss know it can be done from the example of Montalbano, so I really don't think that Moftiss will destroy their own creation by writing stuff which would make the lead actor pull out...