Willow wrote:

...So, we are left with trying to put together evidence which would lead to a successful trial; I agree entirely that Mary might have been able to provide that evidence but Mary doesn't do things for other people; she does things for herself. Lady Smallwood has no record of her conversations with CAM; it is her word against his, and criminal trials require evidence 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Which brings us back to square one...

Any trial would have involved Mary, and Sherlock couldn't have that. He couldn't have Mary's assassin history come out in public, not to mention the crimes she commited with her identity theft, her marriage to John threatened because of the illegality of it, etc. A trial would have involved Mycroft as well, and whatever Mycroft has done or not done, Sherlock believes that Queen and country are best off with Mycroft staying right where he is. What Sherlock did, murdering CAM, was bloody and unacceptable in the eyes of the law, but by god, he took care of the problem of CAM, once and for all, forever. No Appledore files to worry about, not anymore.
 

Swanpride wrote:

All wedding planning happened at Baker street for some reason. Most likely because he simply took over everything and it was easier to do it at his place and keep everything there.

And I don't see Mary being snarky towards Sherlock after the shooting...mainly because the only scene we get is when she tries to convince him through a combination of begging and threatening to keep quiet about her. After she realizes that John knows, they don't even talk to each other, but both are talking to John.
The only scene we get after this is the one at the plane, and there Mary is embracing Sherlock, promising him that she will keep John in trouble. No snark at all in this one, just a deep understanding for each other.

 
I'd have to disagree with you on your last point (in the nicest possible way, of course!).
Mary threateningly tells Sherlock "you don't tell John" when he's barely conscious in Hospital.
She goes after him when he leaves the Hospital - she's armed, and she tells him - threateningly - that she'll do anything to stop John finding out about her - and is snarky about his "obvious" dummy trick.
She doesn't make any attempt to explain herself here, and Sherlock must feel threatened because he points out that if she shoots him in a building with her face on it, she's in trouble.
Back at Baker Street, he's clearly very Ill but she shows no remorse or concern, merely asking him coldly how much he knows - as though HE'S actually the one to blame for her current problem, she refers to him only as "he" when talking to John, and even when Sherlock is trying to convince John to trust her, and go after CAM, there's not a word of remorse or gratitude from Mary.
The next time we see any warmth from her towards Sherlock is when he's leaving - by which time all is right in her world again, although it's about to be very far from alright in Sherlock's world, as far as he's aware.
It's not that I'm anti-Mary - I really, honestly want to like her as much as I did in TEH and TSOT - but as things currently stand, she's done nothing to excuse herself, or redeem herself in my eyes.

Last edited by Tinks (February 11, 2014 3:28 pm)

Swanpride wrote:

You should consider that this is still a TV-show...everything she does up to the point when Sherlock reveals that she didn't really try to kill him is deliberately kept ambiguous in order to keep up the suspense.

When Sherlock reveals that he is bleeding and breaks down, John holds him from his right - but Mary is there too, holding him from his left until the paramedics take her place.  And like I said, after that we don't get a scene until the brief (and warm) goodbye. I guess we are meant to assume that Mary did whatever John and Sherlock asked her to do...first keep her distance and then following Sherlock's invitation. But I don't have any trouble to fill the blanks.

 
Oh I know it's a TV show, first and foremost.
I'm not really focusing here on what went on off-screen in the months between the Baker Street scene and Christmas.
I'm talking about what was shown on screen of Mary's behaviour between the shooting and Sherlock's collapse at Baker Street - I saw no remorse, regret or warmth there; nothing that made me as a viewer, feel the way that Sherlock, and later John, did, in their readiness to forgive.
I'd have expected, actually, that the writers would've showed us Mary's regret in order to emphasise the point that we should be ready to forgive her, actually - whether the fact that they didn't means we're not done with it yet, or whether they felt that the emotional reunion between Mary and John would be enough to win everyone over, I don't know .

Willow wrote:

Be wrote:

I am more and more uncomfortable here with this new Sherlock who apparently killed CAM for sentimental reasons. Who is this Sherlock anyway?
Am I the only one who thinks that this is wrong? (John's quote, btw)

I really don't think that Sherlock shot CAM for sentimental reasons; he had failed his client Lady Smallwood, and he had profoundly miscalculated CAM, thus handing him Mycroft on a platter. Sherlock may be egotistical but he has a very clear view that his brother is essential to all that he holds dear; at that point he is confronted with a choice. He can allow CAM to continue, with the most powerful man in the country either in his pocket or forced to resign, or he can kill him.

He chose the latter, but he was prepared to pay for it with his life; still wrong but his willingness to pay that price makes it rather less wrong than it might otherwise have been...
 

I agree. In my opinion it was a choice out of reason - the importance to stop CAM for the sake of the personal freedom of everyone in the free world - AND sentiment - to protect everyone he holds dear. When reading the discussions it seems that many people see some godlike qualities in Sherlock, that with his intellect he can find a clean solution for every dilemma. I never saw him like that, that´s probably why I don´t feel uncomfortable or disappointed with what he did. He errs quite often, even made some terrible mistakes in the past, and allowed his violent side to rule him. Now he made his gravest mistake, something that cannot really be morally justified, but is still understandable from the human point of view. I don´t condemn him, I am quite grateful I have never been in a situation I would feel compelled to do something horrible like this. Also I acknowledge that there are situations which cannot be handled satisfactory without someone getting his hands dirty. I am sorry it had to be Sherlock, but then again he is probably fitter to deal with the aftermaths than most other people. Still I feel S4 should hold some more consequences for him than just being on a plane for 4 minutes.. and I think it will, for sure it will affect him profoundly.


 

I agree with you, Willow and Zatoichi. And Benedict himself said that Sherlock killed CAM because he had lost his game and could find no other way out than killing him. Of course there are feelings involved but I would not call it sentimental. He finally admits to himself and others that he has feelings and lets them sometimes rule his actions. He is no God and I honestly would not like to see him as a superior being only controlled by its own mind. This would not be a show that could attract me. It is just this polarity inside himself that makes him interesting. 

lil wrote:

To expect remorse or regret or any type of justification over Marys actions is to sell her short. Mary is what she is, and she is proud of it .. 
Mary sees Magnusson as the type of person that needs killing..and herself as the type of killer to kill him.
When Mary is confronted she doesn't say...yes but..or I'm sorry..she says yeah so .. thats what you like!
Mary calls Sherlock on his bs and gets him to admit the embaressing truth..Mary looks Sherlock in the eye and says sorry..as she shoots him in the chest...Mary gives John a memory stick and tells him to his face..its really bad look but...you won't like it or me after.
Mary has that type of vindictive nastyness we can all relate to..she uses Sherlock to discover who dislikes her so she can..stick em by the bogs...
In short Mary has duke nukem style balls of steel.
When Mary threatens you...your scared.
Her past..and her present are all bad and Mary herself acknowledges and confirms it.
She a Joker style character with bad costumes and bad makeup and a corpse bride wedding dress with more than a bit not good/psycho killer on full display.
And thats all fine, cos thats what we like.
If anything is brilliant about Mary its her brilliance at being bad and her honesty about it.
Once Mary is exposed..she doesn't try to excuse herself or fluffy herself up , so why should we?

It could fall that Mary becomes the superbad Moriarty type villain we all love to hate and turns on Sherlock.... Or it could easily fall that Mary is the assasins fire that fights the fire that the new villains bring and saves Sherlock.

Either way...whats with the wishy washy?
She's brilliant because she's brilliantly bad..
Or she's brilliantly bad at being good....

Quite so. The schematic difficulty with this reading is that CAM would have picked up the phone and had her killed after she shot Sherlock and pistol whipped him; you do not leave someone like that running around loose. CAM is far too clever to do that, which leaves us with the unknown reason that motivated him to apparently allow her to continue...





 

YES exactly.....
Doyle saw his Sherlock as something like a babbage computer, and the Sherlock moftiss first gives us is something similar. He wants and trys to be superhuman..and to process everything as data and without emotion.
But like Doyle's Sherlock through his relationship with John he learns about sometimes being human and how that matters and is sometimes necessary data.
Doyle's Sherlock lost it and became human on two memorable moments...attacking the man beating a woman in the street..and when John got shot at.
Mofftiss Sherlock seems to have a human moment here, in shooting Magnusson and the reasons behind it are something similar to Doyles because Magnusson is beating on and holding a metaphorical gun to everything Sherlock holds dear.
It's not the clever or superhero type ending that Sherlock usually contrives..but yes it is the human one.
For me it does fit with a canon Sherlock...and the bbcSherlocks character arc.
So Yes ...agree@Tinks.
Whats sad for me is John has been out of sync and didn't seem to fit comfortably with his preset character or Sherlock or canon this series.
And Mary didn't seem to fit either the program that was..or the Sherlock / John that are.

Last edited by lil (February 11, 2014 7:51 pm)

Tinks wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

All wedding planning happened at Baker street for some reason. Most likely because he simply took over everything and it was easier to do it at his place and keep everything there.

And I don't see Mary being snarky towards Sherlock after the shooting...mainly because the only scene we get is when she tries to convince him through a combination of begging and threatening to keep quiet about her. After she realizes that John knows, they don't even talk to each other, but both are talking to John.
The only scene we get after this is the one at the plane, and there Mary is embracing Sherlock, promising him that she will keep John in trouble. No snark at all in this one, just a deep understanding for each other.

 
I'd have to disagree with you on your last point (in the nicest possible way, of course!).
Mary threateningly tells Sherlock "you don't tell John" when he's barely conscious in Hospital.
She goes after him when he leaves the Hospital - she's armed, and she tells him - threateningly - that she'll do anything to stop John finding out about her - and is snarky about his "obvious" dummy trick.
She doesn't make any attempt to explain herself here, and Sherlock must feel threatened because he points out that if she shoots him in a building with her face on it, she's in trouble.
Back at Baker Street, he's clearly very Ill but she shows no remorse or concern, merely asking him coldly how much he knows - as though HE'S actually the one to blame for her current problem, she refers to him only as "he" when talking to John, and even when Sherlock is trying to convince John to trust her, and go after CAM, there's not a word of remorse or gratitude from Mary.
The next time we see any warmth from her towards Sherlock is when he's leaving - by which time all is right in her world again, although it's about to be very far from alright in Sherlock's world, as far as he's aware.
It's not that I'm anti-Mary - I really, honestly want to like her as much as I did in TEH and TSOT - but as things currently stand, she's done nothing to excuse herself, or redeem herself in my eyes.

Oh! And don't forget how she defended her profession, "People like Magnussen are the reason for people like me!", basically she's saying CAM deserves to die. 

Did she ever show actual, real remorse for nearly killing Sherlock? I mean, an awful lot of us needed to see Sherlock atone, and atone, and atone some more for faking his death to SAVE John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade---

Why aren't we expecting at least the same level of atonement from Mary? 

Maybe when we get the full story...we'll feel more for her.

Yes...She didn't ask for forgiveness and she didn't get it either.
What she got from Sherlock was a logical acceptance without emotions.
What she got from John was more a burn the past , the futures going to be different.