BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What's in a name?

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 4:52 pm

There has been a lot of discussion about the farewell between Sherlock and John in this episode. I wish to add some thoughts about the possible subtext of Sherlock suggesting baby names.

- Sherlock gives John his full name, a thing he has never done before and which I think is meant as a sort of gift, a sign of trust. Remember how stubbornly John hid his second name from Sherlock and only revealed it when he got jealous (my interpretation) of the thing going on between Irene and Sherlock.
Sherlock has always been a bit mysterious and only used his extraordinary middle first name while never mentionining William or Scott. By revealing those to John he makes himself once again more human. He gives up part of his mystery to show John how much he cares.

And then there is the line "Sherlock actually is a girls' name". It is perceived as a joke but of course it goes much deeper. For me it is one of the most moving lines in the episode because it is so simple and yet reveals so much about Sherlock. He could have made any joke to lighten the atmosphere but he chose to repeat his suggestion that they name the child after him. He wants to be sure that he is important to them, that he will remain a part of their lives even if he may die on this mission.

Harriet · January 18, 2014 5:02 pm

I cursed John those moments for not realizing that!

Last edited by Harriet (January 18, 2014 5:03 pm)

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 5:09 pm

Yes, it is not easy to decide about John's behaviour here. Is he suppressing his feelings? Does he not realise the gravity of the situation? Is it difficult for him to accept that Sherlock has killed CAM? So many questions.
But that is what I love about the scripts - making us think very hard, using subtext and echoes from past episodes.

Willow · January 18, 2014 5:26 pm

Interesting! I always read the 'Hamish' as John's less hackneyed version of 'get a room'; I think it has a number of layers enabling a number of possible interpretations.

John's interaction with Sherlock at the end is fascinating; we know that Sherlock is, to some extent, hiding things from John. I wonder whether John is, to some extent, hiding things from Sherlock. After all, Sherlock has made remarkable sacrifices to enable, amongst other things, John to continue in (fake) wedded bliss with Mary, free from being tortured by CAM now and forever. What if John is coming to realise that Mary really is a psychopath who is prepared to kill for what she wants but not to die for it?

By this point John knows that Sherlock is capable of sacrificing himself for others because Sherlock has done so, and is doing so; that is not the behaviour of a psychopath. How could John say to him that actually he has come to realise that clever Mary is like the fake houses, all impressive facade and very little within? I don't know that John could bring himself to tell Sherlock that...

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 5:43 pm

I did not expect John to talk about all this. At this point we do not know much about John's feelings towards Mary. I get the impression that in this episode Sherlock's feelings and motives are less hidden than John's which is quite new. I like it that here John is presented in an ambiguous way. He cannot remain static while the characters around him change and develop.

lil · January 18, 2014 5:57 pm

John never did tell Sherlock his middle name...Sherlock stole/got a copy of his birth certificate I thought.
By scandal Sherlock knew it anyway.
The east wind reference to the ending of canon was odd..maybe hinting they going to go more away from ACD now.
Perhaps Sherlock just was being a bit manipulative trying to get the baby named after him. Intresting its a girl..maybe a rep. The other wives.

Last edited by lil (January 18, 2014 6:01 pm)

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 6:16 pm

I am not sure at which point the birth certificate thing is place in the timeline.

I do not see Sherlock as being manipulative in this scene. He repeats John's joke from ASiB but in HLV it has a much deeper meaning as there is a real baby to be named and he is saying his (as he believes) final goodbye to John.

shezza · January 18, 2014 6:18 pm

I think John was just being sardonic with Sherlock and Irene, as in "get a room".

IMO, telling John his full name in that moment is an attempt at humor (although I'm sure Sherlock wasn't just joking... he totally wanted the baby named after him lol) but also a somewhat nostalgic nod to "the best of times", as were those in ASiB. And like the OP said, considering it's also their final conversation - at least it seemed in that moment - it's Sherlock's final disclosure to his friend, its significance lying in the fact that William and Scott are quite a lot more ordinary than Sherlock.

Mattlocked · January 18, 2014 6:26 pm

I find that scene very interesting and moving, too.
To me it didn't sound manipulative, either. More like a wish. AND I also had the feeling that Sherlock tried to make that situation easier for John (who seemed as if he didn't know where to look and what to say) by making him laugh. Kind of "joke with serious content".

lil · January 18, 2014 6:28 pm

Haha yes..if Sherlock knows bout the Moriarty set up/escape plot..it is pure manipulation from him..hmmmmm.

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 6:34 pm

I do not agree. For me this joke is in line with his behaviour in TSoT. The vow, his speech in which he praises John, his wonder at being someone's best friend.
There are two sides of Sherlock and we see the manipulative side in the whole Janine episode and in a way also in his telling John about the attraction dangerous people have for him. And in his drugging the wholy family.
But not here.

Willow · January 18, 2014 6:43 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I did not expect John to talk about all this. At this point we do not know much about John's feelings towards Mary. I get the impression that in this episode Sherlock's feelings and motives are less hidden than John's which is quite new. I like it that here John is presented in an ambiguous way. He cannot remain static while the characters around him change and develop.

And that is fascinating; John being difficult to read is, as you have noted, new and disturbing in a number of ways. It does explain, I think, why the writers did not use the most famous line in 'His Last Vow' because John does seem to be changing; it may be that the psychological cliffhanger of 'what is happening inside John' is more of a mystery than 'is it really Moriarty' which is the obvious question that everyone asks.

I'm not sure that I like it; I accept that he cannot remain static but I find myself drawn to that one fixed point in an ever changing world of the original story, no doubt because I would like to believe that there is one fixed point. The writers have, to a certain extent, compensated for the ambiguity by making Mycroft far more overtly protective because, whilst Sherlock is a genius, he's not safe out. He needs someone to guard his back...

silverblaze · January 18, 2014 7:00 pm

John is not difficult to read. But MF is a subtle actor and he creates many layers in this character, maybe more so than Benedict, although he also creates microexpressions and things like that.

Funny, my personal interpretation was a bit different. Yes, he wanted to make a joke to lighten the situation a bit, but I immediately thought that this was his way to 'live on', so to speak, since he thought he was gonna die. That's why he tried the baby name trick twice.

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 7:07 pm

Good point.

I guess the thing about John is that he has always been the "good guy". Sure, he killed a man but it was just to save a friend. He always has Sherlock's back, acts as a sort of moral and social compass, his Sherlock's connection to the everyday world around him. We have got used ot that.
But think what has happened to him - he lost Sherlock, found a woman to love, had to cope with Sherlock's return, nearly lost Sherlock again, lost also Mary in a way because she is not the woman he thought he married. Then Sherlock kills CAM in front of his eyes and they have to part again. This is quite much for any person to accept.
I think he will come round again but he needs time.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 7:11 pm

I also think he knows Sherlock would rather be facing death on a mission, than rotting in prison, serving a life sentence. Sherlock has also made Mary safe and saved John's ass.

shezza · January 18, 2014 7:22 pm

^I'm with you, I don't think John is being difficult to read per se. It's just that two years have elapsed and he's a different person than the John we knew from seasons I and II. He's got a lot more going on in his life, a full time job, a wife with a past and a kid on the way and he's been hardened by grief (not that he was that good at expressing his feelings before). Basically nothing is ever in his control and that bothers him, nothing's turned out the way it was supposed to do; his best friend has murdered someone for him. To paraphrase Sherlock, "what the hell are you supposed to say to that'?" He probably feels overwhelmed and guilty about it.

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 7:29 pm

I do not think he is difficult to read either but people have remarked on him being out of character and not friendly enough towards Sherlock. I think you have to take into account what he had deal with in the last two years. Therefore his behaviour is a consequence of what happened before and not an abrupt change of character.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 7:35 pm

Possibly he really believes that Sherlock is indestructible.

Sherlock Holmes · January 18, 2014 7:51 pm

John doesn't know that Sherlock is about to go off on this death mission. He knows it's a six month mission etc, but then he probably assumes that Mycroft will sort things out and Sherlock will come back. He has complete faith in his friend to always overcome these situations and return. That's why he doesn't react as emotionally as people perhaps expected him to in the goodbye moment, also because Sherlock completely lightened it with a joke, which was typical of him.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 8:01 pm

I'm not cerftain John doesn't know...the ' 6 months' comment and the 'Mycroft is never wrong' and the looks...but maybe.